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Thread: Duratec turbo experience and advise

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    Duratec turbo experience and advise

    Hi all

    I have someone trying to place a bid on the turbo Pinto engine from my Capri. Although I don't "need" to sell it is somewhat tempting, especially if he accepts my rather high wanted price.

    A possible replacement would be a turbo Duratec, but I struggle to find good data on turbo builds.

    If I replace the Pinto I want something with a similar power level (279 whp, 416 Nm) but would prefer something that is a bit more responsive and smooth compared to the Pinto. It could be an E85 build for power but I suspect I would run it as a flexifuel to be able to use regular gas as well. I do think a CR of around 9.5-10:1 would work though.

    A wish would be over 200 bhp and 350 Nm from somewhere around 3500 rpm and a useful rev range to 7000 at least (would prefer 7500-8000).

    A 2.0 Duratec from a Mondeo or possibly Miata is the easiest to find here but I would consider a 2.5 or 2.3 too. Aims would be a rather "simple" build with just new rods and pistons and then work with a mostly stock engine.

    I have seen some US dyno sheets on 2.3 Duratecs that seem to not give the power delivery I am after. Maybe I am wanting too much?

    Pinto turbo graph for reference:

    Click image for larger version Name:	Capri dyno Mitsu 19T 20170927 (Medium).jpg Views:	198 Size:	50.6 KB ID:	83603

    Ideas welcome :-)

    Gustaf

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    I have no experiences with Duratec but if you are able to fit a different make engine, Honda S2000 response very well to turbo charging. 400 Bhp and 450 is very easy, almost standard engine. I'm talking about low pressure, 1,2 bar boost.

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    Thanks, but it's a Ford right? ;-)

    I want to stick to something with Ford heritage, for purely nostalgic reasons.

    Mazda MZR is OK since it really is a Duratec.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise


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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    Quote Originally Posted by therealpinto View Post
    Thanks, but it's a Ford right? ;-)

    I want to stick to something with Ford heritage, for purely nostalgic reasons.

    Mazda MZR is OK since it really is a Duratec.

    Gustaf
    Totally understand

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    Thanks!

    That looks pretty close to my target. Would be nice to see a dyno graph to be able to judge how it works over the whole range - the auto transmission could mask some off-boost sluggishness.

    But it seems to support the thought that decent rods and pistons, possibly a crank, will work with decent compression and E85.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    Vauxhall red Top Turbo. After all it was designed by Cosworth

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetcorne View Post
    Vauxhall red Top Turbo. After all it was designed by Cosworth
    But still not a Ford engine, and too old, too hard to find. :-)

    If I'm leaving the Pinto platform it will be for another Ford engine and it will be for something more modern. I could be talked into a BOA/BOB but the Duratec V6 (3.0) is more likely. However I do like the lightness of a Duratec.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    I am no engine guru, but surely 300bhp must be easily achievable on a duratec turbo without going silly on the build. pistons are available with rods etc. The beauty of the duratec is everything is on the same side as the pinto i.e. exhaust inlet etc. My son and i picked one up the other day (literally) with a head on to put it on the engine stand. do that with a pinto
    Last edited by wildo105e; 21-02-2019 at 19:32.

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    Quote Originally Posted by wildo105e View Post
    I am no engine guru, but surely 300bhp must be easily achievable on a duratec turbo without going silly on the build. pistons are available with rods etc. The beauty of the duratec is everything is on the same side as the pinto i.e. exhaust inlet etc. My son and i picked one up the other day (literally) with a head on to put it on the engine stand. do that with a pinto
    That is my feelings too but I would like to see how a simple 300 bp build usually performs.

    The infrastructure is another big reason for going Duratec instead of Zetec for example. I spent some hours on my exhaust system and I'd like to keep it :-)

    Still, it's not certain I will go down this route. Depends on what the prospective buyer decides to do.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    my experience of turboing engines is fairly limited, but ive done a couple of different ones, and found with very little internal work (dropped cr only) 1 bar of boost has at least doubled the N/A power,

    so if a standard 2.0 duratec with a decent exhaust and throttle bodies can make 200bhp (flywheel) then that same standard engine given a bar of boost shouldnt have any trouble in making 400bhp

    ok perhaps im being a bit simplistic here but a duratec head will flow at least 30% more air than the best pintos, so then give similar spec engines the duratec should make AT LEAST 30% more power than the existing pinto, or you could use a smaller turbo and get the same power but lower down the rev range.

    as for E85 turbo motors love it

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    A mate of mine over here in Oz has been very successfully racing a turbo duratec in a Mk2 escort, makes really good numbers (over 300rwkw from memory) without a whole lot of work, just money spent in the right spot, on E85 fuel. Seeing what he has done I wouldn't hesitate.
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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    I have been building a number of turbo engines before but what really set off my interest now was the Zetec turbo a friend built for E85 in his Westfield. Smooth, good power, with 243 bhp (wheels) at 0,7 and over 260 Nm from 3000 to 6500 rpm.

    Thanks to my work I have had the fortune to drive a pretty good number of E85 turbo conversions but mostly on larger engines (BMW M50 for example).

    So I am certain a Duratec would deliver the max hp I want, but I would like to see that people also get somewhere close to the wide power band I want :-)

    Gustaf

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    when i tried E85 on a turbo motor we gained 20% power on the same boost, it needed a lot more timing but it showed we had the potential to put a lot more boost in there

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    If you compare the breading capacity of the Duratec and Honda S2000 I feel they can make the same power (they also do in NA configuration). The Honda can easy be tuned to 400 Bhp with almost standard engine, over 1,2 bar, the engine need a full rework and start to be expensive. I expect the same kind of power possible for the Duratec. With E85 is should be able to make 400 Bhp very easy.

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    Lots Over here for sale 150 BHP standard too

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    2.5 duratec has the monster rods from the factory. Seem to be good for 300ftlbs out of the box, so if you spin to 8k and play with the boost to keep the torque peak down you ought to be able to push 450ish out of it with just valve springs and counterbalance delete. Mine wanted to valve float at 12psi for some reason with stock springs but there are crower springs and retainers from a subaru that fit IIRC (PN 87085S-16) that work great. I didnt keep a dyno printout of my motor because of the valve float made it sad, but with the 7163 on wastegate 12psi made 200ftlbs from like 2500-7k rpm even with the valve float, lol. Thats with a turbo that can hit 550hp.

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    boost pressure works against the the valve springs, so if spring pressure wise they are marginal at any given rpm, then given boost they will be inadequate at the same rpm

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    Sorry that might have been miss information. I just remembered that I might have had "valve float" because the oil pump sprocket bolt backed out and it was just magic that was creating oil pressure while on the dyno. Which probably caused the vvt pulley to be unable to maintain position so it was probably vibrating back and forth. It was weird that it valve floated around 4k and then over 7k but cleaned up in between. Either way most people can spin a 2.5 to 8k or make over 300hp on turbo with the stock valve Springs, I swapped mine but found the oil pump issue even swapping them.

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advice

    Quote Originally Posted by therealpinto View Post
    Thanks, but it's a Ford right? ;-)

    I want to stick to something with Ford heritage, for purely nostalgic reasons.

    Mazda MZR is OK since it really is a Duratec.

    Gustaf
    It's a Mazda engine really, designed by Mazda in Japan whilst under the ownership of Ford.
    It's nowhere near as advanced as a Honda F20c and will never make as much power, but can still be turboed easily enough.
    Plenty of advice on the various Mazda forums

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    I'm not sure it won't make the power of an f20c. There's a company that builds the 2.3 non-vvt Ford Ranger version for sprint cars that have to use stock valve Springs and ports and they get over 300hp at the crank with no forced in induction. They even get gimped by having to use mechanical fuel injection. I can't imagine what they could build if they were allowed to run any valve Springs and start with a 2.5 head and port it.

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    The Honda puts out 80bhp more as stock, you can't compete with dual VTEC with the single VVT, it's nowhere near as effective. It's also got forged rods and pistons as standard. In reality no-one is getting 300bhp from a 2.3 on stock springs and ports, it's physically impossible.
    The 2.5 head doesn't flow anymore than the 2 or 2.3 so not much point in putting it on really.

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    http://www.circleperformance.com/ima...bl/DTKX033.BMP

    Dyno speaks for itself, remember that's crank since it was on an engine dyno but it's also with the worst flowing head in the duratec lineup, I think Europe only got it in early 2.0s.

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    Quote Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
    There's a company that builds the 2.3 non-vvt Ford Ranger version for sprint cars that have to use stock valve Springs and ports and they get over 300hp at the crank with no forced in induction.
    And is that company circle performance or is that just the website where the graph is stored?
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    Quote Originally Posted by dazzle View Post
    And is that company circle performance or is that just the website where the graph is stored?
    I think so, it took me a while to find the graph after I first posted.

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    Quote Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
    http://www.circleperformance.com/ima...bl/DTKX033.BMP

    Dyno speaks for itself, remember that's crank since it was on an engine dyno but it's also with the worst flowing head in the duratec lineup, I think Europe only got it in early 2.0s.
    If you believe that you'll believe anything.

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    I mean, they went so far as to convert to a timing belt I believe. And we're running 100% methanol.

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    Re: Duratec turbo experience and advise

    That graph is showing about 360bhp.
    The std springs go solid at 12mm lift, so allowing for clearance they can only use a cam with 10.5 lift. To get over 300 you'll need something like 14mm of lift.
    Last edited by Deltona; 17-05-2019 at 14:57.

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