budget pinto tinkering

[alladdin]

as a follow on from the last thread i thought i would post an update for anyone thats bored enough to stumble upon this and to get advice and views as i progress

so being dissapointed with the old but sweet pinto i had fitted i sold it on and built up a replacement from my parts bin ( ok -scrap pile ).
its a std bottom end given a quick glaze bust, new rings and big ends.
head is an old carb head that i have done some porting to, std valves with a vizard 30 deg cut back, head skimmed by 1.25mm from memory with seats all re cut by local machine shop (serdi) - nothing too fancy then.
cam wise i have fitted a used piper 285 (cheers Telf ) which i set to = lift at tdc but a tad more on inlet ( well i have tried to - i will re check it at some point).
still on 32 36 dgas at moment while i bed it all in ( same carb), i hope to fit some 45s i have once i am happy its all ok.

i have done around 30m so far to run it in and still going easy but i did hit the 2nd choke today and i can say for sure it pulls much harder and more eagerly than the last one even tho i didnt push too hard.

points so far
when i tensioned the cam belt the adjustable pulley seems to be all the way one end - i seem to remember comments about this issue from others ?
seemed to have a flat spot as it hit the second choke , only tried it twice but wasnt there on last engine so maybe that it needs upjetting ?

i have had to blank the dizzy vac line - when i set it without vac it advances a lot as soon its re connected and revs go up which increases advance further, i tried all ways but in the end i could only get a stable result with it left blanked. revs rise sharply with any advance. comments and / or views welcomed.

its not running nicely on choke when cold as it did previously - it needs more throttle opening but choke mech was fine before, im wondering if its because its already wound up more on idle screw than previous engine to run at 1200 idle. once warm and choke opens its ok.

temperature seems to rise quite quickly if left idling, its stable at 1/2 way on gauge while driving.

well thats it for today , any feedback welcome

[Graham]

i found kent vernier pulleys only just have enough adjustment, if you have std jets in the carb you need bigger mains for sure, your probably find putting a 1.5mm drill through them will work wonders

[alladdin]

cheers graham, i do have some bigger jets to try but just want to get it running decently first.
im assuming my timing advance issues are related to the cam as it timed fine on last engine with same dizzy ( sierra electronic)
its more lumpy than i expected at idle tbh and although ONYD always does advise against 285 with dgav others seem to report a decent idle.

[Graham]

285 cam and dgav will be a bit lumpy, you probably have much less inlet vacuum on idle so as you suggest idle screw in a long way to keep it running

[alladdin]

it actually seems higher, too high to enable me to connect vac back up to dizzy after setting timing as it advances off scale.

[Dyno]

With the correct cam, you can have the same power and still have a standard idle and low down torque. Standard idle also means the throttle plate is in original position and vacuum is working as it should. BP285 is not the cam I would suggest in combination with DGAV.

Adding twin Webers would be the best option for this setup. It will release a lot of extra low down torque.

[alladdin]

With the correct cam, you can have the same power and still have a standard idle and low down torque. Standard idle also means the throttle plate is in original position and vacuum is working as it should. BP285 is not the cam I would suggest in combination with DGAV.

Adding twin Webers would be the best option for this setup. It will release a lot of extra low down torque.

thanks onyd. that is the plan - i just want to put some miles on and iron out any issues with a known good carb before i move to next stage.
at the moment my only real concern is that it heats up quite quickly and once at temp wont run at idle long without getting too hot.

[Dyno]

OK, overheating is never good. Why is it running hot?

[Graham]

tight tappets retarded timing will make it run hot.

other thoughts is teh thermostat the right way round many people install pinto stats wrong way round

[alladdin]

A few Tappets are on tight side but only a thou ie if it's 12 then may be 11. I can't imagine that will do it ?

Timing has been a bit odd but currently set on either 10 or 12 btdc. ( I forget what last mark is on wheel. ) that's no vac at 1000rpm.
Stat correct and rad gets hot all over.
The fan fitted is electric and quite small ( std rs2 old rad). I was running without it as battery is fooked hence My slow reply as I have given up while I get a battery (Tuesday ).
When I took it to wash it in the week it got to normal temp within about 1 to 2 miles.
Will report back once I can better asses with fan in use.

[Erikmex]

Lean mixture will cause it to run hot, whats the AFR?

[alladdin]

No idea on afr but it's at idle and I didn't need to adjust for best running from std. I will tweak again once timing position finalised. Battery came today so will get it on in morning.


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[Dyno]

Ignition set at 10° - 12° at idle say nothing at all when we talk about ignition setting. I'm sure some Ford Pinto distributors will run close to or even over 40° total advance if you set them to 12°. Thats what too much for modern fuel and tuned engines. Should be between 28° and 32° as an absolute max voor a good engine (correct build engine normally round 28°). This kind of overtimed ignition in combination with a slightly poor jetting can run engines into high temps problems.

Please check max advance, 1mm is approx 1° with a standard Ford pulley. Possible you need a retimed distributor.

[alladdin]

yes you are correct of course but since i am still running in with lower loads and revs the max advance is not an issue for me as yet, that will come later.

[alladdin]

i managed to get some miles on it yesterday, around 45 - temp is steady when moving but climbs slowly in slow moving traffic despite fan on. it hit 3/4 at highest.
i have checked and i fitted a 88 deg stat so i will fit cooler stat as a starting point.

[katana]

yes you are correct of course but since i am still running in with lower loads and revs the max advance is not an issue for me as yet, that will come later.

Don't overlook the fact that most mechanical advance is max'd out at 3 - 3,500 rpm!

[alladdin]

Yes point taken and I know I'm running blind but I'm not exactly re inventing the wheel by using a std dizzy with vac disconnected so hopefully that's not an issue as yet.


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[Forest_rallying]

This might sound like a stupid question but have you got a decent size Radiator on it and is your temp gauge reading correctly?

[alladdin]

radiator may well be an issue as its a very old std mk2 rs one i had - more a possible age issue than size.
gauge yes, worked fine with zetec and works fine now tbh, steady at the 1/2 way point and temp only goes up when stood idling ( and it IS hot inc rad)
i have done another 50 mls tho and its running fine otherwise. need to sort temps so that i can get the twin dcoe on.

74 deg stat on route to see what effect it has.

[dt36]

Were you out in this tonight around 7pm?
I heard a cheeky little burble outside my daughters house in Ponty and caught a glimpse of MK2 driving past, as I went to the window.

[wildo105e]

you can get infra red thermometers off ebay now for £15 you will know the real temp then.

[alladdin]

Were you out in this tonight around 7pm?
I heard a cheeky little burble outside my daughters house in Ponty and caught a glimpse of MK2 driving past, as I went to the window.

I passed that way Sunday after 6pm on a loop
It's silver.


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[Forest_rallying]

What fan set up have you got alladdin?

[alladdin]

What fan set up have you got alladdin?

its a chinese electric ebay job. i think its a 12" from memory as it has to be offset to clear pulley bolts so that was biggest i could fit engine side (it pulls).

back in the day i had a pinto mk2 that had no fan at all from memmory and was thrashed to death without issue. it did have a (smallish) new radiator tho and i remember that as it had plastic header tanks which was new technology at the time

75deg mini stat is here and modded ready to fit, im not sure it will help (my moneys on rad) but we wiull see.........

[mexicotait]

I’ve got one of those fans on and Idling it can’t keep my crossflow cool
I swapped for a spal one and it fixed it

[davemk1]

Is the fan running the correct way round?

[alladdin]

Is the fan running the correct way round?

I'm not sure it has a "correct" direction but it's inside rad and pulling air in.


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[Graham]

some fan blades are designed to only be efficient pulling in one direction, so it might be the blades need reversing on the motor spindle, you might have to then reverse the polarity

[redhf]

Spall is the way to go .

[Miniliteman]

74 deg stat on route to see what effect it has.

Once a thermostat is open that's it. A 74 degrees item isn't going to run the engine cooler. It is not a regulating device.

[alladdin]

Once a thermostat is open that's it. A 74 degrees item isn't going to run the engine cooler. It is not a regulating device.

your correct in that once fully open - thats it, although the stat is a regulator (of flow) and will run engine cooler if rated cooler BUT ONLY IF cooling is available
which i suspect is what you mean anyway.
the hope is that its open more - sooner so at least it delays any temp rise.
i fitted it today - water was filthy.
it ran up to 1/2 way on gauge in around 10 min - this is where it sits when moving - and held position with fan coming on but staying on, i gave it 15 min which it coped with.
its filled with a citric solution at the moment overnight and i will flush it out tomorrow if its not turned rad into a pepper pot.

given that it still hit a point on gauge that the 88 stat was controling at while moving its obvious it cant control at 75 on fan alone ( no surprise ) but it must be very close to coping...........
hopefully i can take it out tomorrow for a spin and see if the 2nd flush has helped.

[snapper1]

My journey to control temperature was a long one and on a Lotus 7 replica however for interest this is what I did.
Origins radiator was a single 27 core Cortina and don’t have a chance of keeping it cool, I went to an 82 degree thermostat and large electric fan when that didn’t work I put a Coolman twin 27 core with bigger top volume, still hot. Next fitment was a twin 42 core from Boston radiators it’s been all good since then.

it did have a 13 core oil cooler and partway through the multiple radiator swaps I put a thermostatic takeoff and a 16 core oil cooler on it, this was mostly because a Lotus Seven has a much smaller engine bay and suffers from engine bay heat soak, getting under-bonnet heat out of the bay can be as important as getting cold air in but I don’t think your anywhere near that yet

[alladdin]

My journey to control temperature was a long one and on a Lotus 7 replica however for interest this is what I did.
Origins radiator was a single 27 core Cortina and don’t have a chance of keeping it cool, I went to an 82 degree thermostat and large electric fan when that didn’t work I put a Coolman twin 27 core with bigger top volume, still hot. Next fitment was a twin 42 core from Boston radiators it’s been all good since then.

it did have a 13 core oil cooler and partway through the multiple radiator swaps I put a thermostatic takeoff and a 16 core oil cooler on it, this was mostly because a Lotus Seven has a much smaller engine bay and suffers from engine bay heat soak, getting under-bonnet heat out of the bay can be as important as getting cold air in but I don’t think your anywhere near that yet

cheers for that, ive been to the beach so still not taken it out since the flush......
i couldnt find boston rads other than a trade login page ?
i did find these tho if anyone has experiance ? http://www.coolexperts.co.uk/product...-british-made/

[snapper1]

That’s a very good price for an ally rad.

[alladdin]

took it out today with mixed results,
temp ran cooler as expected, now steady at 1/4 gauge when moving rather than at 1/2.
i also fitted 150 main jet to primary side which has improved the response ( already a 150 in secondary) and crucially i noticed that fuel bowl level was low (i had noticed this before but didnt jump on it at the time) so adjusted to higher level and its now pulling like a train at higher revs whereas i had a suspision it was holding back earlier (didnt try too hard as running in )

then the temp started rising - steadily - which seemed odd - i pulled over into a carpark ( and heard a tinkle ).

engine hot but not excessive - rad cool but empty so i got on the blower for a rescue bowser
and while waiting i strolled back to see what the tinkle was , and thats when i found the core plug

tapped it back in and filled up before driving home, car ok but i was feeling

when i got back it was fine but climbed to fan on again while putting it to bed so seems a rad / fan issue at standstill only tbh

core plugs a worry tho as i fitted 3 new ones

[snapper1]

A bit of locktight never hurt when fitting core plugs however they should be a very tight fit to start with.
Clean out the hikes with care and use a socket to push them in level

[alladdin]

A bit of locktight never hurt when fitting core plugs however they should be a very tight fit to start with.
Clean out the hikes with care and use a socket to push them in level

It went back in to within 1mm of flush by hand and tapped in easy which is a concern. I will use a socket to tap below surface slightly when I get a chance.
At the moment I'm getting some dcoe ready to fit for step 2 😊


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[Graham]

It went back in to within 1mm of flush by hand and tapped in easy which is a concern.

doesnt sound right i fitted a set a couple of days ago, they certainly didn't tap in easily, they needed a hefty clout

[Dyno]

Yes, you need some force to drive them in. I also always clean the block very well, get rust out and use a thin layer of (thin) Loctite tread sealer on both block and core block. Not only to seal better, also to lock them

[alladdin]

onto stage 2 - fitting twin 45s.

i wanted to keep battery in front so i knew it would be tight, i used an old (C T ?) manifold that had been drilled wrong from factory so i had to machine the bolt holes to get it to match the ports. to clear battery tray i needed to raise the engine 10mm ( i think it had settled downwards anyway) and flatten the rear lip on the tray to give me 10mm or so clearance on no1 trumpet. i was able to bend dipstick to come up between 3 + 4.
i need to make a revised non valved breather and fit fuel regulator but it runs

i stripped and blew out the chinese carbs - only sign of anything was a resiudue in progression hole pocket. ( to my eyes anyway )
i set the floats to 12/13mm which is about parrallel to top. ( they were at 18mm )
i changed the jetting to a set recommended on my last thread.
balanced by looking into progression drillings.
then i decided i just had to try it before going home so lashed up an inline filter and some hose strait from std pump
i have not fitted a throttle cable yet so wasnt too hopefull but with a couple of squirts and idle set high it coughed into life pretty quickly.
only run 2 min max as low on water but dropped idle and its smoother than its ever been and revs up nice without any fuss - so far so good
i cant post pics as i changed laptops and need to install pix resizer