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Thread: Roll cages and the MSA

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Exclamation Roll cages and the MSA

    This is important for anyone that competes in events subject to scrutineering by the MSA.

    My Escort failed scrutineering at the Woodbridge Stages rally last weekend. The scrutineer said my roll cage didn't comply to K 1.3.1.

    In fairness to the organisers, the regs and web site clearly stated "Please be aware that there have been eligibility issues with 'double bend' front rollcages. Our Chief Scrutineer, under advice from the MSA has advised that any rollcage that does not specifically comply with the requirements of 'K1' (see 'Blue Book' from p160) will require an MSA or FIA roll cage certificate. If in doubt contact your roll cage supplier."

    However, at no point has any scrutineer ever commented on my cage as being a possible problem. The scrutineer that failed me this time was the same chap that scrutineered me at both the Richard Burns rally and another Woodbridge event before that. I was fully aware of the regulation, but the way I interpreted it, I was sure my cage was compliant. There is a very slight bend below the lower windscreen bend but I'd consider that to be "slight shape to follow the profile of the bodyshell". If I'd had rollcage padding on it, I doubt he would have noticed it. He said that without a certificate from Safety Devices I couldn't compete.

    You can see a very clear profile of my cage in the pic below, taken when I last rebuilt the car. The 'bend' in question is just below the line of the dashboard.



    Mine was one of the last cars to go through scrutineering at Woodbridge, and the last of the Escorts. Once I'd failed and withdrawn our entry, I went for a walk round the paddock, chatting to the other Escort drivers. I looked in 7 escorts, and 6 of them had the same cage as me.

    I had a read through the relevant section in the Blue Book. It states:


    Main, Front and Lateral Rollbars
    These frames or hoops must be made in one piece without joints. Their construction must be smooth and even, without ripples or cracks. The vertical part of the main rollbar must be as straight as possible and as close as possible to the interior contour of the bodyshell. The front leg of a front rollbar or a lateral rollbar must be straight, or if it is not possible, must follow the windscreen pillars and have only one bend with its lower vertical part.

    I called the scrutineer over, asking for clarification, stating my case on the grounds that the bend was in the lower vertical, so was surely OK? His opinion was that the windscreen bend constituted the lower vertical and so it wasn't compliant as there were 2 bends. He made the point that there is no diagram in the Blue Book showing a second lower bend. I couldn't argue with that, but the description in K 1.3.1 doesn't tie up with the diagrams.

    I then asked why mine had failed when there were a number of cars out there competing with the same cage as me. He responded that he hadn't seen them and if I wanted to lodge a protest against another competitor that was my decision. He had clearly missed my point.

    Gavin had a problem after the first stage which meant he had to retire and then re-enter the practice rally. This required re-scrutineering, at which point he got the same scrutineer that I'd had, who told him his cage was illegal and would need a certificate for next time. He was allowed to continue in the practice rally though.

    So, I had 2 options: get a certificate, or change the cage. On Monday morning I looked on the Safety Devices web site and found a page that said certificates were available from the MSA.

    I called the MSA on the number provided and spoke to a nice lady who relieved me of 18 in return for a certificate. I received it in the post yesterday. Its a scan of an old RAC certificate from 1981, printed on MSA watermarked paper. Its a 'SAFETY ROLL BAR CERTIFICATE' though, not an homologation paper. In fact there is a section on the certificate that mentions homologation numbers, which is blank. At no point did I have to provide a serial number or any proof that I actually have a Safety Devices cage.

    The diagram which is included on the certificate does match my cage, but I have modified it slightly, adding a couple of optional reinforcing members in accordance with K 1.2.4.

    I am assuming I will have no problems at the next event as I now have a MSA certificate, but of course we'll have to wait and see for that one.

    In summary - make sure your cage is compliant with K 1.3.1 and if you have any doubts, obtain a MSA certificate for it.

    For info, here is a related thread on the britshrally.co.uk forum.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Ruddy hell, what a farce. My Fiesta cage also has a 2nd bend in it, though hardly noticable.


    Can you scan in the certificate, so we can all save ourselves 18
    Last edited by team_zi; 01-10-2010 at 16:11.

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    Pit Crew Decade Plus User PaulAlex's Avatar

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Hi Jon,

    Do you think the certifcate will be valid if it doesnt quite match your cage?

    (I think I'll be in exactly the same position as you, despite the fact that mine was only logbooked this week - how mad is that?!)

    Cheers,

    Paul.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    The guy who built my shell was picked up on this last weekend as well.

    I believe the cage was a OMP one, he wasn't overly happy about it when I spoke to him.

    My cage is the same as the one at the top, welded in as well ! guess I won't be doing any competetive work in it as I'm not changing it.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    I am assuming I will have no problems at the next event as I now have a MSA certificate, but of course we'll have to wait and see for that one.
    i wouldnt expect you too, scruitineers usually apply the latest std specs which can render old cages illegal, but in the instance of proof that a cage is historically correct they usually are fine
    Last edited by Graham; 01-10-2010 at 22:17.

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Well, fingers crossed...

    I had a couple of PMs about this too, asking about contact details to buy the certificate. Its available from the MSA, not Safety Devices. Tel. number for the MSA is 01753 681 736. Ask for certificate '206' which, according to the lady I spoke to, is the only one for a MK2 Escort.

    I tried uploading a scan using the attachments feature, but I can't get the File Upload Manager to see the files on my computer for some reason... anyway, if any of you want a scanned copy, its a 3.5MB PDF. Drop me a PM with your email address and I'll send it to you. The MSA watermarking hasn't scanned very well though, so if you plan to compete with your car you might be better off getting a 'pukka' one from the MSA.

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulAlex View Post
    Hi Jon,

    Do you think the certifcate will be valid if it doesnt quite match your cage?

    (I think I'll be in exactly the same position as you, despite the fact that mine was only logbooked this week - how mad is that?!)

    Cheers,

    Paul.
    I'm really not sure. I hope that having a certificate will be good enough.

    At Woodbridge there was a chap with a Sunbeam. He'd been picked up for the same thing at his previous event and so he had obtained a roll cage certificate for this one. It was a tatty black & white photocopy and he only presented the first page to the scrutineer. He had no trouble getting through.

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamb View Post
    Ruddy hell, what a farce. My Fiesta cage also has a 2nd bend in it, though hardly noticable.
    Wrap a load of padding round that and I doubt they'll spot it.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Quote Originally Posted by JonSegger View Post
    Wrap a load of padding round that and I doubt they'll spot it.

    But the vertical legs bend inwards as well. No amount of padding is going to cover that up.




    So this is nothing more than a money making scheme by the MSA.

    Or does this just apply to Escorts?
    Last edited by team_zi; 02-10-2010 at 10:41.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulAlex View Post
    Hi Jon,

    Do you think the certifcate will be valid if it doesnt quite match your cage?

    (I think I'll be in exactly the same position as you, despite the fact that mine was only logbooked this week - how mad is that?!)



    Cheers,

    Paul.
    ive been talking about such things to one of our clubs scruits recently and the answer is technically the certificate is no longer valid if teh cage is any different to the diagram on the certificate

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Quote Originally Posted by grahamb View Post
    But the vertical legs bend inwards as well. No amount of padding is going to cover that up.

    So this is nothing more than a money making scheme by the MSA.

    Or does this just apply to Escorts?
    Hmm, yes, it shows up more in that photo...

    It applies to all cars. There's been a lot of problems with the Micras running in the F1000 series having a non compliant cage. This is what has made the scrutineers become more focussed on this rule.

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    ive been talking about such things to one of our clubs scruits recently and the answer is technically the certificate is no longer valid if teh cage is any different to the diagram on the certificate
    But you are allowed optional reinforcing under K 1.2.4 - but I guess that only applies on a home-made cage..?

    Its crazy really. If this was a home-made cage, it'd be fine so long as the lower front legs were perfectly straight.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    K1.2.4 is only saying that such re-enforcements are allowed in a cage design, not that you can add such reienforcements to a certified cage.

    home made cages are not legal unless you can get them msa certified.

    i have a letter of compliance from the manufactor for the cage in my car,, its states that the main hoops etc comply but TBH i know that doesnt automatically mean will actually pass scruiteering, for many years i competed in a car which had optional reinforcements added without issue, then oneday i had major agg getting through scruiteering, ironic really as what they wer in effect saying is my cage was unsafe as it didnt comply even though it was way stronger than the basic bolt in cage i started with,

    with my new shell im looking to get the best most comprehensive cage i can that has all the features i want so i know i will never run into the issue were talking about here

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Yeah, it seems an overly complicated area, where common sense and good engineering don't seem to count for much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    home made cages are not legal unless you can get them msa certified.
    The scrutineer told me that as long as the cage is made from the correct tubing and meets all of the technical requirements and regulations regarding joints and bends, a home-made one is fine and would pass a log booking and scrutineering.

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    Way too much free time Decade Plus User Retromotorsport's Avatar
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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    I think the MSA should clear up this bad english ..

    must follow the windscreen pillars and have only one bend with its lower vertical part.
    A; must follow the windscreen pillars and have only one bend within its lower vertical part.

    B; must follow the windscreen pillars and have only one bend with its lower part vertical.

    Now either A or B is easy to understand , and A would mean that having a bend in the lower part is legal ..
    As i read A, the bar follows the screen and then bends to form a vertical lower leg, this lower leg is allowed a further bend.

    B is clear too, one bend only

    Some Pugeot cages have the dash bend then a lower bend to clear the inner sill, so do Clio's if memory serves me righ.

    Also as they are bringing this up as a safety reg... then surely banning front triangulation of the cage is a step back, as this does stop the hard object you've hit pushing the engine back into you.

    And i've lost count of the number of univesal door bars i've seen that has the tube cut to allow it to fit, but then hasnt been welded up, the tube is just slip fitted into the clamp that wraps around the main bars.. shocking as this can come free and form a nice spear. yet so many Scrut's miss this.



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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    mmmm and the MSA are currently spending 's on yet another review to work out why entries and licence applications are dwindling?! Maybe starting by sorting out a clear set of rules would be a good idea - I mean, we've only had the Blue Book for how many years?

    My Escort passes a log book at the beginning of the week, doesn't have a spanner near it (except me ) all week, and now its potentially illegal - but we wont know until we drag ourselves 200 mile up the country and suffer the costs of doing an event? And even then, it sounds as though its hit and miss depending on what mood the scrutineer is in?!?!

    Well f*ck freezing my bits off on the driveway all winter putting it right - I'm off to play golf - where the rules are clear, perfectly good equipment isn't "lifed" out of use, and I can have a wee dram or three while playing

    Rant over - anyone want an Escort?

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/newsar...ter=1&nid=1354

    worth a read some guy went to court over it

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Don't get this.

    If this is a safety devices cage it has already been subjected to the MIRA tests and is approved. Mine is the same cage from what I can gather from your pics. Can you check your homologation number from the sticker? It should be 78.

    Another case of an idiot sctrute. Who was it?
    Last edited by windy; 02-10-2010 at 22:51.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    The Bulletins issued to scrutineers can be downloaded from the MSA website. The "clarification" issued was aimed at S bend cages - they even have a picture of someone's car as an example. (If you look back over the last 2 years there are quite a few interesting ROPS). In the June issue the MSA sort to clarify the problem, an whilst it woudl not win any awarrds for clear drafting I think it is sufficient to cover the Escorts with SD cages. The phrase is:

    "In simple terms the tube runs straight to follow the windscreen pillars to the base of the windscreen to the one bend for the tube to run vertically to the floor. This lower part is to be straight but may have a slight “shape” in order to follow the profile of the bodyshell."

    For an Escort there is only a slight shape in the lower leg where it passes by the dashboard. As the dashboard is steel and welded into the car I would argue that it is part of the body shell.

    The Micras with the obvious S bend cages certainly don't comply with the wording. What is more worrying is that vehicles with a second bend in the lower leg in the same direction as the first bend which have been competing without issue could now be excluded.

    With regards to modifying an homologated cage the definition of an homologated cage is not defined. I would therefore read it as a cage limked the homologation of a car. What I believe the wording is trying to achieve is that if you modify an homologated cage it will no longer be homologated and will therefore have to meet the ROPS criteria.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Quote Originally Posted by windy View Post
    Don't get this.

    If this is a safety devices cage it has already been subjected to the MIRA tests and is approved. Mine is the same cage from what I can gather from your pics. Can you check your homologation number from the sticker? It should be 78.

    Another case of an idiot sctrute. Who was it?
    My cage hasn't got any stickers on it. It's a few years old and has been painted a couple of times.

    There's no homologation number on the certificate either though..




    The chief scrutineer was Kevin Peake. I don't think he's an idiot, I just think he was over zealous on this occasion andd he's working to a set of ambiguous rules and regulations that need clarifying and some common sense applying.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Jon I have to disagree. If your car was dangerous then regardless of whether other cars had been passed he had an obligation to prevent them from continuing in a dangerous way, and not asking you to protest them. The guidance notes issued to them in June whilst not 100% clear certainly implied you should have been allowed to compete. Slight shape is allowed, distinct bend is not - yours (and mine) certainly fall into the slight shape catagory given that slight shape is not defined.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    you try finding a cage that doesnt have a slight shape in that area.
    i have used escorts with several different designs of cage over the years.and now have one with a full grpa spec which took several hours to build/fit. and now i need to get a photo copy of a bit of paper from 190? to make it legal! ajoke!!!!!!
    surely all this should be sorted out by the msa and cage manufactures not by us when we get to scrutineering at an event!
    this would save alot of agro for both competitor/scrutineer

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    I'll make a call to the MSA tomorrow to see where I stand with my modified Mk1 Fiesta Safety Devices cage. This is how it looks today, with my additions in red. The cage has no stickers on it, and was resprayed with the rest of the car in 2000. The saddle brackets I used for the lateral (removable) bar, and the 38mm CDS, were all provided by Safety Devices.


    If the certificate never existed for the Mk1 Fiesta, then what do I do? Its not like the Fiesta has the heritage of the Escorts over the years.

    After all the effort over the past few years to ready mine for competition in 2011, the last news I wanted was that my cage is illegal.

    No wonder so many people build cars for track days - the legislation for competitive motorsport in this country is a minefield, with ever changing goal posts.

    The same attention isn't paid to seat belt mountings, or seat mountings themselves, something far more critical in the event of an accident.
    Last edited by team_zi; 03-10-2010 at 19:27.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    safety devices cages all have a number stamped on the feet at the bottom of the main whoop this is the same number as MSA drawing no for an SD cage

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    [QUOTE=

    The same attention isn't paid to seat belt mountings, or seat mountings themselves, something far more critical in the event of an accident.[/QUOTE] Sorry, but I cant believe that Graham. Having a single seater I find that they check mounting points of belts and seats as much as steering joints, but probably because they are easier to get at

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    interestingly i've never had belt mounts checked other than by a limp pull on the belts which doesnt prove anything, as for steering joints they never get looked at, but i guess thats simply because of the differences between a single seater and a tin top,

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Graham,

    Info is on the safety devices web site:

    Fiesta Mk 1 & 2.Fiesta Mk 1 & 2.



    Bolt-in cage to clear normal trim and dashboard. Mounts in 6 places to floor / rear wheel arches. Certified for competition with fixed or removable diagonal.

    MSA/FIA homologated.

    Certificate available from MSA tel.: 01753 681 736.



    Front cage: RBF053SSS
    Rear (no diag.- road use): RBF054SSS
    Rear (fixed diag.): RBF055SSS
    Rear (removable diag.): RBF055SRS
    Universal Door Bar (per side): RB00A1

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Thanks Graham

    And scrutes only appear to focus on one thing, and thats whatever the flavour of the month is.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    I should imagine having an I-phone is going to come in very useful at scrutineering - assuming you've got tinterweb signal of course

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    MSA has no record of any certificates for the Mk1 fiesta using those certificate numbers Graham. They advise I speak with SD direct to confirm the numbers.

    I called SD and they also had no idea what those numbers are. I'll check the cage feet this evening (assuming that the paint isn't too thick).
    Last edited by team_zi; 05-10-2010 at 15:04.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    I smell a rat

    Just checked the SD website, and rang them back, pointing out that the part numbers are on their website today, yet neither they nor the MSA recognise them, and they said that the web site isn't up to date, and that there may not be any certificates with those part numbers shown.

    WTF?

    So I'll check the numbers stamped on the cage feet, and if they match the numbers shown on the website, what do I do then?
    Presumably there is no certificate in that case?

    http://www.safetydevices.com/product...iesta-mk-1-a-2


    Yet if I make my own cage from scratch, I dont even need a certificate?
    Or do I just declare that this is a 'home made' roll cage, and side step the certificate issue?
    Last edited by team_zi; 05-10-2010 at 15:16.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Fiesta MK 1 Roll Cage Certificate No. is RAC 245 date 8/1/81. But no Door Bars. This Cage is in my Fiesta MK1 Group2. Sorry, my Fax- Copie is very bad i can no scan.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Just checked my certificate for my Fiesta MK1 rally car which has a Alleybars roll cage and i have two pages with diagrams which show door bars and all the rollcage spec , i got this certificate from the MSA back in the 80`s .Not to sure but i don`t think any cert would be ok unless it has the MSA hole stamp on it.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    I heard another potential spanner in the works for next years blue book. Was talking to a guy on the Cambrian on saturday and he said that bolt in cages will be excluded next year. Thats going to upset a few people!
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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Quote Originally Posted by mark87 View Post
    I heard another potential spanner in the works for next years blue book. Was talking to a guy on the Cambrian on saturday and he said that bolt in cages will be excluded next year. Thats going to upset a few people!
    What do you mean by "excluded next year" ???

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    That will never happen!

    No Bolt in cages would make 90% of the cars illegal all the Historic cars have to be bolt in!
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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    Quote Originally Posted by JonSegger View Post



    .
    i've just obtained a certificate for the cage in the alfa (well two actually but thats another story) it was hard work as initally the msa couldnt find any cages for the car even though it is a certified cage, no safety devices cages showed up on there system eventually searching via some other means they found it, an important note is the year of vehicle is almost irrelavent to them it the year that teh cage was certified thats critical in finding a cage , unfortunatly though the picture looks exactly like the one above and doesnt show the second bend in the cage! in actually fact the only difference between the certificate for the alfa and the escort is the date cert number and name of vehicle even the weight is identical!

    due to the picture not matching the cage as far as the front legs go it looks like despite have a certificate i could still have scruiteering issues!
    Last edited by Graham; 27-10-2010 at 12:22.

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    It seems that a lot of the certificates may use a generic diagram - which doesn't help us really.

    Windy sussed out that there was a second certifcate available for the MK2. So, I called the MSA back and got them to send me that one instead. This looks a lot more like my cage.




    I also emailed Aeron at Safety Devices (having already spoken to him on the phone), sent him some photos of the feet and joints in my cage and got an email back from him confirming that it was a Safety Devices one. I don't know if that would be official enough, but it can't do any harm to have that available at scrutineering. Graham, it might be worth you doing the same..?

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    Re: Roll cages and the MSA

    I know this is an old thread but are people still having trouble with the double bend on the mk2 safety devices cage? I'm want to get my car log booked and wondered if this is still an issue now?

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