Technical advice needed for fast road/track Escort Mk1

[m3dtm]

Hi all,

Hopefully some of you can help me from your own experience, as I am new to the old Ford world.
Although I have a large pile of Classic Ford magazines, it is good to learn and check from real world experience.
I have a road going Escort Mk1 from 1974 that currently has a 2.0 Pinto with turbo in it (that’s how I bought it). It has a 5-speed gearbox, 3.89 LSD, GAZ suspension and lowered.
Included in the sale came a new set of Sierra rear brakes and anti tramp bars (which I will not install) and I bought an anti dive kit, full 6-link Watts kit, a small Atlas axle from a Capri Mk1 and a new set of bubble arches, all to be fitted in the near future.
On top of all that I also bought a Cosworth YB turbo engine and gearbox that was built to 350 bhp spec.

Instead of throwing it all onto the car, I know it is not as simple as that. What I would like to end up with is a very light car (820-850 kilos) with either 300 bhp N/A or 350 bhp turbo to play with as a fast road/track car.
So far driving the car as it is, it is not very good under braking. The front moves under braking, which is why I bought the anti dive kit.

1) Will the anti dive kit be sufficient or do I need to do more to get the front stable under braking (I will fit AP brakes on the front).

2) What diff ratio do most people use with a YB either pushing out 300 bhp (N/A) or 350 bhp (turbo)?
I am not after ultimate top speed. I also have a BMW E30 with S54 engine that does nearly 280 km/h, but now changing to a much shorter diff which will give a top
speed around 240-245 km/h and even faster acceleration.

3) I understand there are drive shafts with a different number of splines. With the new set up in mind do I need to go for 18 splines, or are there more options?

4) I am used to a plate disc LSDs, but also read about different types. I don’t want a visco or Quaife torq bias diff, what other options are there? And if I stick to a plate
disc LSD, is that of the Capri 2.8i my only option?

5) An other good advice what to buy or incorporate into the build?

Thanks!

John

[m3dtm]

Picture of my Mk1.

[Forest_rallying]

I notice you are from Sheffield, I was a member of the Citys 111 Motor club nearly 40 yrs ago.

We tried anti dive kits on Road Rallies years ago and they were shite, the best advice I can give is throw it in the skip. If you want to stop the front diving under braking then the only option's to fit stiffer front springs and a good pair of compession struts.

It looks a nice car you have and the rest of your questions will have to wait to another day as I have been at work since 3.00am.

[Graham]

the main reason the car will nose dive is soft springs not the lack of an anti dive kit

[rallyrob]

And you can forget the 300bhp N/A Cossie. In reality you'll only end up with around 250-260, and that'll be a push.

[redhf]

I thought he was going turbo ?

[m3dtm]

And you can forget the 300bhp N/A Cossie. In reality you'll only end up with around 250-260, and that'll be a push.

To be honoust I was wondering if the quoted figures you read about are actually true. 100 bhp/liter on a 16 valve seems to be what is possible, so if you get the YB to 2.5-2.6 liter that equates to what you say.
Then again there are some companies (you know who I am talking about) that claim 330 bhp from their YBs.

[m3dtm]

I thought he was going turbo ?

Haven't decided yet. I like a screamer, I like 8 or 9,000 rpm, but I also like the enormous shuff in the back you get from a turbo engine. So don't know yet.
The engine I bought is a turbo YB, but that was just to get an YB.
I once drifted a fully prepped Skyline R32 that revved to 9,000 and had 450 hp. That engine sounded great and felt fast. Unfortunately for the owner it didn't last.

[m3dtm]

We tried anti dive kits on Road Rallies years ago and they were shite, the best advice I can give is throw it in the skip. If you want to stop the front diving under braking then the only option's to fit stiffer front springs and a good pair of compession struts..

I always thought the reason why the Escort moves under braking is because the wheels actually move to the outside under braking due to the way the front suspension is constructed. Hence you bolt on the anti dive kit to get the extra connection from the anti roll bar and chassis legs (if that makes sense).

It looks a nice car you have and the rest of your questions will have to wait to another day as I have been at work since 3.00am.

Can't wait.

John

[Erikmex]

Anti- dive kits lower the front of the anti roll bar, they promote understeer in my experience, i just use a double width kit.

[Forest_rallying]

Anti- dive kits lower the front of the anti roll bar, they promote understeer in my experience, i just use a double width kit.

And reduce castor.

[MegatronUK]

It's definitely worth thinking carefully about what route you want to go - either normally aspirated or turbo. The turbo route is substantially more complex and there's way, way more "stuff" to try to fit in the bay, along with much higher cooling requirements and probably double (or more) the amount of torque going through the drivetrain versus the same engine in NA form. Everything needs to be beefed up.

Don't let that put you off, if it's want you want to do (the turbo YB route is what I did after the initial NA route with a redtop and 45's), but it's not a cheap or simple job.

[katana]

Can I throw an alternative into the mix if you are looking for a lower weight with an output around 300hp - a 2.0L+ Duratech? They will do 200+hp stock and 250-260hp NA with a little work and 300hp with head/cams etc but fit a huffer and 350hp shouldn't be a problem plus its an all alloy engine so lighter than a pinto?

[Erikmex]

Redtop wins every time for NA tuneability and durability, low spec Duratecs are weak as piss, defo more power to be had from a 16v but you cant hold them at high rpms the way you can a good old pinto.

[turbospud]

thats not right,everyone at the top of any sprint/hillclimb speed series in scotland is duratec powered,eg david long,david looms and stephen,
redtop has had its day unless your going to get a kpg or millington version then its loads a dosh

[Erikmex]

Eh?? those guys arent even competing in the Scottish sprint or hillclimb championship in Scotland, Derek Rothnie is leading the hillclimb series in a Clio and Ross Glen sprints in a Mx5 (points), i cant think of a Duratec in any of the championship cars.,im friends with a lot of the guys who compete, do the odd event myself, in standard form a redtop is way way stronger than a Duratec, for a number of reasons - stronger rods, crank, duratec has a propensity to slip timing given the crank timing gear isnt keyed, i know a few guys who race in the SMRC Fiesta ST challenge and theyre continually wrecking them, they dont last like redtops, if you add steel rods, decent pistons etc then they are just as good as anything else, but in basic form the Redtop is a much tougher engine, still the choice for most Grp4 cars....heavier but more reliable. Ive built numerous Redtops over the years and yet to see one fail badly, Duratecs however in my exprience and from speaking to other friends who race and rally.....are wrecking them often.

[turbospud]

has david long just not won the superlap with caterfield duratec,
stephen won the sprint chmpionship last year with a duratec,the btcc redtop that was in it the year before split its crank,replaced with a reliable 310 duratec

[Erikmex]

You mean the SLS at Knockhill, thats not scottish sprint and hillclimb series, he runs a Caterham R400 that doesnt have a std 2.0L Duratec, its been replaced by a 2.5, there is not an engine builder i know of that will say a low spec Duratec is a stronger engine than a redtop, the cylinder heads flow a little better but redtop bottom ends are far stronger, thats not just my opinion.

[para144]

I echo the comments regarding the anti-dive kit, give that a miss is my advice. My Mk1 tarmac rally (Pinto) car seems to work well on compression struts & it moves around a lot less under heavy braking than when it had a twin-cam anti roll bar. Decent tyres will make a difference too, anything designed for tarmac rallying has a stiffer sidewall than a fast road or race tyre.

Regarding engines, anything turbocharged may limit what you can use the car for. If you fancied a bit of single venue tarmac rallying for example you have to be normally aspirated.

Duratecs as mentioned offer good power & weigh little. Redtop XE's are probably still the common engine of choice in rallying & come in various states of tune. The road rally boys even have to use the standard inlet & injection etc but hey still go well with a good exhaust & ECU.

Rather than put an expensive engine in that might limit the sports you can do, My advice would be to build a car that could be eligible for everything - sprints, hill climbs, rallying, racing etc. choose something normally aspirated & up to 2.5 litres..... in my own experience it was getting plenty of stage miles in that made me faster, I'd bung in any reasonable engine in & worry about big power later.

Reliability is super important in any car build too, watching from behind your broken down car is no fun & you'll not be learning anything either !

[axel]

subscribed...interesting topic

[m3dtm]

Not much has changed on the car, still the same as when I bought it.
But... thought a lot about the right engine for me and at the moment seriously thinking of selling the turbo YB and gearbox and chasing a nice Duratec engine.
Hope to end up with 240-250 bhp and go the complete lightweight route.

Read about mods like using the Mazda RX8 one piece carbon propshaft and MX5 Mk3 6-speed gearbox, which seems to have better ratios.

Will not fit the anti dive kit, but will go for better suspension first and see what the effect will be.
Do need to figure out what needs to be changed at the front regarding tca and anti roll bar to stop the wheels from moving under braking though.

John

[notenoughtime]

Uprate the front springs and fit a compression kit and see how you get on, make sure front bushes are in good condition also

[Forest_rallying]

Not much has changed on the car, still the same as when I bought it.
But... thought a lot about the right engine for me and at the moment seriously thinking of selling the turbo YB and gearbox and chasing a nice Duratec engine.
Hope to end up with 240-250 bhp and go the complete lightweight route.

Read about mods like using the Mazda RX8 one piece carbon propshaft and MX5 Mk3 6-speed gearbox, which seems to have better ratios.

Will not fit the anti dive kit, but will go for better suspension first and see what the effect will be.
Do need to figure out what needs to be changed at the front regarding tca and anti roll bar to stop the wheels from moving under braking though.

John

You need to fit a compression strut kit to the front end to stop your wheels moving back, they aren't too expensive. If you have a bit more cash you could fit a Gartrac style tension strut kit complete with independant ARB.

[m3dtm]

You need to fit a compression strut kit to the front end to stop your wheels moving back, they aren't too expensive. If you have a bit more cash you could fit a Gartrac style tension strut kit complete with independant ARB.

Seems like good advice, looked it up on the Gartrac website.
As I am new to Escorts, can't say which diameter anti roll bar I need to go for though. I hate understeer, but do like a car that doesn't roll too much through the corners.
Obviously you order a set depending on the diameter of the roll bar, so not something you simply order and buy again if you want to upgrade the anti roll bar.

Choice seems to be 16 mm, 19, 22 and 25 mm. What was standard on the RS Mk1s, 19 mm?

John

[mjr]

Seems like good advice, looked it up on the Gartrac website.
As I am new to Escorts, can't say which diameter anti roll bar I need to go for though. I hate understeer, but do like a car that doesn't roll too much through the corners.
Obviously you order a set depending on the diameter of the roll bar, so not something you simply order and buy again if you want to upgrade the anti roll bar.

Choice seems to be 16 mm, 19, 22 and 25 mm. What was standard on the RS Mk1s, 19 mm?

John

A bigger diameter anti roll bar would likely create understeer.

[Miniliteman]

Hello John,
what most people forget when deciding on modifying the suspension of an old Escort (well any car really) is where the front and rear roll-centre is or will be. And how it changes under braking and roll. Also the tyres used on the car will influence a lot how it drives/handles.
Regards, Leon.

[m3dtm]

Hello John,
what most people forget when deciding on modifying the suspension of an old Escort (well any car really) is where the front and rear roll-centre is or will be. And how it changes under braking and roll. Also the tyres used on the car will influence a lot how it drives/handles.
Regards, Leon.

Hi Leon,

When building/modifying the car I will try to install the lighter Duratec as low as possible and as far back as possible, so I should 'gain' compared to the standard Pinto engined set up.
For now the back end will get the 6-link configuration and the whole car will be lowered for tarmac spec. The aim will be to get as close as possible to a 50:50 weight distribution.

Next thing to work out will be the suspension itself, as I don't want to end up with an overly stiff car.

John

[Forest_rallying]

Seems like good advice, looked it up on the Gartrac website.
As I am new to Escorts, can't say which diameter anti roll bar I need to go for though. I hate understeer, but do like a car that doesn't roll too much through the corners.
Obviously you order a set depending on the diameter of the roll bar, so not something you simply order and buy again if you want to upgrade the anti roll bar.

Choice seems to be 16 mm, 19, 22 and 25 mm. What was standard on the RS Mk1s, 19 mm?

John

The Gartrac type ARB that's used with tension struts is a skinny little affair, possibly no more that 16mm in diameter. Whether the bar offers any sort of assistant I would like to say as there doesn't seem to be a lot of temper in them, it's probably more for show.

I have have had a Sierra and Escort Cosworth Gravel Rally cars and they both had compression struts without a Roll Bar. It's all about what your driving needs are.

[larrythelabrador]

Personally I would sell the gaz units & fit some Bilstein monotube units, add a set of compression struts & C. 190lb coils.

[waverunner]

Interesting read and good to hear your still with the build.
Just a note and from my experience in rebuilding my Escort, unless your going completely standard, these cars seem to constantly evolve, well, mine certainly is. I doubt you’ll get it right first time.