Is this what your useing for my track day bud???
Hope so
Is this what your useing for my track day bud???
Hope so
stuff like that certainly pose tough questions, invariably because every engine i do has to work first time first hit i tend to go with what im sure will work rather than try something different, what i've love to be able to do is try a selection of cams,
im my opinion the P5/Ht1 wants to be in a bigger motor than 2.0, indeed mr walkers race pintos were short stroke 2.1 and were revving to 8.5, would be rubbish in a rally car though
got to say im pretty much in agreement there jason, excluding millingtons i've yet to see an N/a that really impresses me, they all seem to need a hell of a lot of revs for the power they makeTo be honest Graham, after having looked at several N/A cossie power and torque curves a good pinto would murder them, they are very peaky not much happening until over 6k, personally I would not bother building one for NA use as they are not good unless you really go crazy with the modifications and big ££££'s
I would build a 2.3 pinto instead, honestly much faster on a sensible ish budget
Thats awesome power/torque. Well done bud
The biggest difference is money tbh, everything in those engines are custom made and highly developed, the series one engines did use a YB head but extensively modified to reach 300bhp, in reality though it is the sum off all the parts and the correct combination that makes those engines so much better than your regular NA cossie built with commonly used parts, a few years ago in classic ford I did see a proper NA cossie, it was built in the UK with very expensive parts, made 330bhp and a ton of torque from 2.6 if I can remember correctly, name your price though
"Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari
Excellent results Graham, really chuffed for you dazzle, I'm not at all jealous
Certainly gives food for thought, just a pity I've now spent loads on yb bits by the looks of it..
Sierra cosworth turbo race car
QMN saloon car championship
RETRO Motorsport
to a certain extent i think its partly a case of few people have really learnt how to make this engine really work, i remember when the cvh appeared it was labled as rubbish because it wasnt anything like as good as an x/flow when tuned, thats not proved to be the case, time and development showed it could be as good, HT could get 170bhp from a 1600 which is right up there with the x/flow and without using anything like as many revs to get it,
in its very early days speedwell evaluated the pinto with regard to tuning and decided it was untunable! why because they were trying to tune it like an MAE and rev it to 10K we now all know that a zillion revs isnt the way to go with a pinto, of course i could be shooting from the hip here but i do have to wonder if part of the problem is most cams are BDA based, and whilst being great for a 10k 1600 bda have nothing like the lift a 2.0 YB needs
Last edited by Graham; 13-09-2011 at 09:38.
one thing i do miss in my Y/B is torque... My pinto did pull a lot nicer down low than my YB, but it didnt rev as freely.
I have been in a 220BHP 2.3l Pinto and a 270BHP NSAP YB - The YB gets my love with a massive BUT - COST and the other thing, the Pinto was Turkish Johns Red MK2 - NO car has ever pulled the hair up on the back of my neck quite like this car did
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OK. In a 2-valve engine is the torque at low engine speeds higher than a 4-valve engine.
But:
I've Pinto engine with 182, 195, and over 200 BHP ((213, 219BHP) from 2000 to 2380 cc), BDA 1800, and a NA Cosworth. To drive the best and fastest is the NA Cosworth. The BHP and torque curves are the most harmonious.
http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthre...-or-Millington
i had a cuppa with dave walker the other day, i know that he was pretty inpressed with the motor considering the the cam is fairly sane and teh exhaust was nothing outragous either,
one question i had for him was,the answer washow senative was it on the timingsuggesting i could of pushed the compression a bit more, another quarter of a ratio would of probably seen it break the 200bhp barrier that said your never going to notice teh difference between 197 and 200bhp, but 200 sounds a lot fasternot at all
Seeing as you've put that up Graham, I'll let you know the interesting piece of information!!
That power plot only stopped at that figure because the injectors were maxed out!! So, with bigger injectors.......
Plus, I was running it on normal unleaded and Dave said I needed to run it on Super as he was having to retard the timing a lot whilst mapping it as it was pinking quite bad!!
I'm out at the ring at the moment and I've surprised a few cars
So when I get back I'll have to look at the injectors
Cheers
Dazzle
ops normal unleaded! i dont do anything that runs on that!
bigger injectors dont always add more power it depends on how short of fuel its getting, dave always leaves the fueling on the safe side so going bigger might be just a case of the engine being a bit safer, a road engine will cope with being a bit short on fuel because its not at full throttle/load the whole time.
i cant imagine pulling the head off to raise the compression more, its not going to be worth it for a small power gain on a road car, besides the higher the cr the more fussy it will be a low speed
Last edited by Graham; 18-09-2011 at 10:11.
i theory a tank of super and some more ignition should just see the 200 barrier then , a couple of years ago i used to only run normall unleaded and had the distributer as close as i could to pinking so i couldn't get no more advance, i then started running on super and went on one of those rolling road days, the operator managed to advance it some more coz i was now on super and i gained 5 horsepower, that was pretty much a standard engine too. but is it worth the extra cost in fuel just to see 200 horsepower?
its not dead till it's buried!
T.I.T engineering. "Feel the power!"
on a car spendiing most of its life in a traffic jam or warming up no, otherwise the extra cost should be offset by improved mpg
thats a point, what sort of mpg are you getting with this engine dazzle?
its not dead till it's buried!
T.I.T engineering. "Feel the power!"
Graham I think you'll find the reason that N/A Yb's don't usually impress is guys still build them along the lines of a BDA or an older style 4 valve with questionable compression and bigger duration short lift camshafts with a small exhaust profile and then try to exhale it through a crap manifold thats either too small or too big and 4 into 1
A n/a YB needs as much compression as you can get with a high lift shorter duration camshaft and lots of work on inlet and exhaust ports and even more work on the combustion chamber and then mated to a decent 4-2-1 exhaust manifold as they can be made to work and make as much mid range torque and drivability and if not more than a pinto. Go and ask Mark Cogan what he's seen here in Oz as it can be done but you have to get the right components and be willing to source them from around the world as there is a lot better components available at even cheaper prices than what you guys pay for your regular local brands
Danny
A friend of mine runs a 2.1 pinto on 102 octaine, and 48's in his race car. He swears by the RL31 cam, last dyno'd at 137kw and that with a junk exhaust manifold. So yes those RL31's have the ability to make power. I'm building the same spec motor just with an HT1, so it will be interesting to compare the two power plots.
Graham, I'm not saying I want to go for bigger injectors as I think they will make more power, I'm saying by going to bigger injectors WILL make more power, as they were maxed out!! No more could have been rung out of them as they were at 100%!!
At 7000rpm on the lower power curve on the graph, it peaked there because the injectors were maxed out!! On the higher power curve, you can see that the injectors maxed out earlier, hence the lower rev reading for max power!! We didn't bother going down the road of changing the injectors at the time as I was MORE than happy with 197
But I am positive it will give more power at the top end with bigger injectors and break the 200 figure
Cheers
Dazzle
Turn your fuel pressure up a bit much cheaper than injectors and you can work out the % you would need to trim the map by
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Okay, a bit of an update!!
I've just found out my injectors aren't ST170 items but something else!! Not sure what happened but they came with a ST170 engine so who knows
Mine are 0280155819's and only flow 176cc/min so using a rough calculation to find BHP capabilities, we get 176/5 = 35.2 X 4 = 140.8bhp which isn't good!! No wondered they are maxed out!!!
So, I need some new injectors and I'm open to some advice from you great people!!
One of my questions is, what if you go for some with too big a flow rate, do these cause running problems?? I appreciate I will need to get it re-mapped but will going too big have a negative influence?
Reversing the calculation, using 220bhp gives us 220/4=55x5=275cc So, something around the 275cc range then??
Any ideas? Good deals out there??
A big thanks goes to Roadsport for a good tip on some cheap injectors without even asking
Cheers
Dazzle
Cosworth Greens 0280150803 are a lovely injector in this range great atomisation and very reliable but in the case you ECU cannot run high impedance injectors then the later Siemens range are great and you can get massive injectors that are incrediably controlable, like the 700cc ones that HT use.
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or a set of real st170 injectors?
track fiesta on all the right bits.....
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i can sort you some used 220cc ones FOC, or suggest you get some of roadsports suggested ones.
going too big donesnt have any real disadvantage unless you go way too big
st 170 ones are 315cc IIRC.....
check bosch injector flow rates here http://www.polog40.co.uk/article_injector_table.php
track fiesta on all the right bits.....
The power of the 2.2 drops in the early 7000's. Is the caused by it's cam or is that typical for a stroked pinto?
I'm running an HT1 in my 2.3 wich runs just under 210 bhp, i wanted to change it for a GTS4 to have more power at higher rev's but if a stroked pinto doesn't go well over 7500 rpm then this would be useless and it would be better to go for the HT1 evolution and shift earlier...
Our 2.2 pinto also starts dropping on power after 7500 with the old HT1 and we are making 219Hp
Is the HT1 evo a new cam or a replacement on the old HT1 - Just got my HT1 imported about 3 months ago and did'nt see the evo in the Kent book. :-(
Last edited by smokeybeansie; 22-09-2011 at 16:28.
carbs, 48 chokes if i remember correctly.
The reason my 2.2 dropped at that point was due to the injectors! If you read back you'll see I mentioned that the injectors were maxed out so therefore couldn't give any more!
This is shown by the fact the higher power output was at a lower rev reading!
I have now purchased some new injectors, as recommended by Roadsport. I'm going to look at doing a little bit of work to the fuelling system then fit them and get it mapped again!
I'm not saying it's going to make loads more power but it will be nice to know they aren't working too hard and that I can turn down the Fuel pressure to help the fuel pump out
Cheers
Dazzle
its not dead till it's buried!
T.I.T engineering. "Feel the power!"
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