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Thread: pete a 2.2 200 and a bit bhp pinto

  1. #121
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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Is this what your useing for my track day bud???

    Hope so

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    stuff like that certainly pose tough questions, invariably because every engine i do has to work first time first hit i tend to go with what im sure will work rather than try something different, what i've love to be able to do is try a selection of cams,

    im my opinion the P5/Ht1 wants to be in a bigger motor than 2.0, indeed mr walkers race pintos were short stroke 2.1 and were revving to 8.5, would be rubbish in a rally car though

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    To be honest Graham, after having looked at several N/A cossie power and torque curves a good pinto would murder them, they are very peaky not much happening until over 6k, personally I would not bother building one for NA use as they are not good unless you really go crazy with the modifications and big ££££'s
    I would build a 2.3 pinto instead, honestly much faster on a sensible ish budget
    got to say im pretty much in agreement there jason, excluding millingtons i've yet to see an N/a that really impresses me, they all seem to need a hell of a lot of revs for the power they make

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  5. #124
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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by trig View Post
    Is this what your useing for my track day bud???

    Hope so
    If it survives the Ring this w/end
    Cheers

    Dazzle


  6. #125
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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Thats awesome power/torque. Well done bud

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by dazzle View Post
    If it survives the Ring this w/end
    PMSL fair play bud

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    got to say im pretty much in agreement there jason, excluding millingtons i've yet to see an N/a that really impresses me, they all seem to need a hell of a lot of revs for the power they make
    What is it in them Millingtons that makes them so uber compared to regular N/A cossies? N/A are not so impressive but the Millingtons are pretty much out of this world?

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadsport View Post
    What is it in them Millingtons that makes them so uber compared to regular N/A cossies? N/A are not so impressive but the Millingtons are pretty much out of this world?
    The biggest difference is money tbh, everything in those engines are custom made and highly developed, the series one engines did use a YB head but extensively modified to reach 300bhp, in reality though it is the sum off all the parts and the correct combination that makes those engines so much better than your regular NA cossie built with commonly used parts, a few years ago in classic ford I did see a proper NA cossie, it was built in the UK with very expensive parts, made 330bhp and a ton of torque from 2.6 if I can remember correctly, name your price though
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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Excellent results Graham, really chuffed for you dazzle, I'm not at all jealous
    Certainly gives food for thought, just a pity I've now spent loads on yb bits by the looks of it..

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by david_white View Post
    Excellent results Graham, really chuffed for you dazzle, I'm not at all jealous
    Certainly gives food for thought, just a pity I've now spent loads on yb bits by the looks of it..
    you might recall i liked the idea of a big cc pinto

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by RWD fords rule View Post
    The biggest difference is money tbh, everything in those engines are custom made and highly developed, the series one engines did use a YB head but extensively modified to reach 300bhp, in reality though it is the sum off all the parts and the correct combination that makes those engines so much better than your regular NA cossie built with commonly used parts, a few years ago in classic ford I did see a proper NA cossie, it was built in the UK with very expensive parts, made 330bhp and a ton of torque from 2.6 if I can remember correctly, name your price though
    to a certain extent i think its partly a case of few people have really learnt how to make this engine really work, i remember when the cvh appeared it was labled as rubbish because it wasnt anything like as good as an x/flow when tuned, thats not proved to be the case, time and development showed it could be as good, HT could get 170bhp from a 1600 which is right up there with the x/flow and without using anything like as many revs to get it,

    in its very early days speedwell evaluated the pinto with regard to tuning and decided it was untunable! why because they were trying to tune it like an MAE and rev it to 10K we now all know that a zillion revs isnt the way to go with a pinto, of course i could be shooting from the hip here but i do have to wonder if part of the problem is most cams are BDA based, and whilst being great for a 10k 1600 bda have nothing like the lift a 2.0 YB needs
    Last edited by Graham; 13-09-2011 at 09:38.

  13. #132
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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    one thing i do miss in my Y/B is torque... My pinto did pull a lot nicer down low than my YB, but it didnt rev as freely.

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    I have been in a 220BHP 2.3l Pinto and a 270BHP NSAP YB - The YB gets my love with a massive BUT - COST and the other thing, the Pinto was Turkish Johns Red MK2 - NO car has ever pulled the hair up on the back of my neck quite like this car did
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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    OK. In a 2-valve engine is the torque at low engine speeds higher than a 4-valve engine.
    But:
    I've Pinto engine with 182, 195, and over 200 BHP ((213, 219BHP) from 2000 to 2380 cc), BDA 1800, and a NA Cosworth. To drive the best and fastest is the NA Cosworth. The BHP and torque curves are the most harmonious.

    http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthre...-or-Millington

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    i had a cuppa with dave walker the other day, i know that he was pretty inpressed with the motor considering the the cam is fairly sane and teh exhaust was nothing outragous either,

    one question i had for him was,
    how senative was it on the timing
    the answer was
    not at all
    suggesting i could of pushed the compression a bit more, another quarter of a ratio would of probably seen it break the 200bhp barrier that said your never going to notice teh difference between 197 and 200bhp, but 200 sounds a lot faster

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    i had a cuppa with dave walker the other day, i know that he was pretty inpressed with the motor considering the the cam is fairly sane and teh exhaust was nothing outragous either,

    one question i had for him was, the answer was suggesting i could of pushed the compression a bit more, another quarter of a ratio would of probably seen it break the 200bhp barrier that said your never going to notice teh difference between 197 and 200bhp, but 200 sounds a lot faster
    Seeing as you've put that up Graham, I'll let you know the interesting piece of information!!

    That power plot only stopped at that figure because the injectors were maxed out!! So, with bigger injectors.......
    Plus, I was running it on normal unleaded and Dave said I needed to run it on Super as he was having to retard the timing a lot whilst mapping it as it was pinking quite bad!!

    I'm out at the ring at the moment and I've surprised a few cars
    So when I get back I'll have to look at the injectors
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    ops normal unleaded! i dont do anything that runs on that!

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    ops normal unleaded! i dont do anything that runs on that!
    So....will we see the head coming off to up the compression ratio soon ? The use of Super Unleaded ? Maybe some bigger injectors ?

    All to break the magic 200 bhp figure ???

    Cheers,
    David

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    bigger injectors dont always add more power it depends on how short of fuel its getting, dave always leaves the fueling on the safe side so going bigger might be just a case of the engine being a bit safer, a road engine will cope with being a bit short on fuel because its not at full throttle/load the whole time.

    i cant imagine pulling the head off to raise the compression more, its not going to be worth it for a small power gain on a road car, besides the higher the cr the more fussy it will be a low speed
    Last edited by Graham; 18-09-2011 at 10:11.

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    i theory a tank of super and some more ignition should just see the 200 barrier then , a couple of years ago i used to only run normall unleaded and had the distributer as close as i could to pinking so i couldn't get no more advance, i then started running on super and went on one of those rolling road days, the operator managed to advance it some more coz i was now on super and i gained 5 horsepower, that was pretty much a standard engine too. but is it worth the extra cost in fuel just to see 200 horsepower?
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    on a car spendiing most of its life in a traffic jam or warming up no, otherwise the extra cost should be offset by improved mpg

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    thats a point, what sort of mpg are you getting with this engine dazzle?
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Graham I think you'll find the reason that N/A Yb's don't usually impress is guys still build them along the lines of a BDA or an older style 4 valve with questionable compression and bigger duration short lift camshafts with a small exhaust profile and then try to exhale it through a crap manifold thats either too small or too big and 4 into 1
    A n/a YB needs as much compression as you can get with a high lift shorter duration camshaft and lots of work on inlet and exhaust ports and even more work on the combustion chamber and then mated to a decent 4-2-1 exhaust manifold as they can be made to work and make as much mid range torque and drivability and if not more than a pinto. Go and ask Mark Cogan what he's seen here in Oz as it can be done but you have to get the right components and be willing to source them from around the world as there is a lot better components available at even cheaper prices than what you guys pay for your regular local brands
    Danny

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    A friend of mine runs a 2.1 pinto on 102 octaine, and 48's in his race car. He swears by the RL31 cam, last dyno'd at 137kw and that with a junk exhaust manifold. So yes those RL31's have the ability to make power. I'm building the same spec motor just with an HT1, so it will be interesting to compare the two power plots.

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    bigger injectors dont always add more power it depends on how short of fuel its getting, dave always leaves the fueling on the safe side so going bigger might be just a case of the engine being a bit safer, a road engine will cope with being a bit short on fuel because its not at full throttle/load the whole time.
    Graham, I'm not saying I want to go for bigger injectors as I think they will make more power, I'm saying by going to bigger injectors WILL make more power, as they were maxed out!! No more could have been rung out of them as they were at 100%!!
    At 7000rpm on the lower power curve on the graph, it peaked there because the injectors were maxed out!! On the higher power curve, you can see that the injectors maxed out earlier, hence the lower rev reading for max power!! We didn't bother going down the road of changing the injectors at the time as I was MORE than happy with 197
    But I am positive it will give more power at the top end with bigger injectors and break the 200 figure
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Turn your fuel pressure up a bit much cheaper than injectors and you can work out the % you would need to trim the map by
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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Clint View Post
    Turn your fuel pressure up a bit much cheaper than injectors and you can work out the % you would need to trim the map by
    Already done that Clint
    Had to up the pressure to get what we did! That's what I'm trying to say, the injectors are TOTALLY maxed out
    Just need to work out what ones to go for now that don't cost too much
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Okay, a bit of an update!!
    I've just found out my injectors aren't ST170 items but something else!! Not sure what happened but they came with a ST170 engine so who knows
    Mine are 0280155819's and only flow 176cc/min so using a rough calculation to find BHP capabilities, we get 176/5 = 35.2 X 4 = 140.8bhp which isn't good!! No wondered they are maxed out!!!

    So, I need some new injectors and I'm open to some advice from you great people!!
    One of my questions is, what if you go for some with too big a flow rate, do these cause running problems?? I appreciate I will need to get it re-mapped but will going too big have a negative influence?

    Reversing the calculation, using 220bhp gives us 220/4=55x5=275cc So, something around the 275cc range then??

    Any ideas? Good deals out there??

    A big thanks goes to Roadsport for a good tip on some cheap injectors without even asking
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Cosworth Greens 0280150803 are a lovely injector in this range great atomisation and very reliable but in the case you ECU cannot run high impedance injectors then the later Siemens range are great and you can get massive injectors that are incrediably controlable, like the 700cc ones that HT use.
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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    or a set of real st170 injectors?
    track fiesta on all the right bits.....

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by dug112y View Post
    or a set of real st170 injectors?
    Good point better than the 1.6 Zetec ones and probably very cheap, what do duratec ones flow I have loads here you could have a set.
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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    i can sort you some used 220cc ones FOC, or suggest you get some of roadsports suggested ones.

    going too big donesnt have any real disadvantage unless you go way too big

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    st 170 ones are 315cc IIRC.....


    check bosch injector flow rates here http://www.polog40.co.uk/article_injector_table.php
    track fiesta on all the right bits.....

  35. #154
    Spanner Monkey smokeybeansie's Avatar

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by RWD fords rule View Post
    I have just made a basic power curve comparison between 2.2 Pete, 2.0 Linford and the 2.0 BF63 engine we built
    Tom (Group4_Mark2) sent me a good chart before comparing different engines, I adapted his graph to suit, I am sure Tom could make a much better graph but its not too bad, you can see Pete has more bhp all the way up than Linford and it murders Linford for low to mid range torque, bhp and torque curves for Pete and the BF63 engine are quite similar, Pete has more torque from 3750 to 6000rpm or so, I beleive this is the extra cc and also possibly the effect of the different manifold, 45mm TB's and trumpets

    BF63, 50mm carbs, 136mm rods, a tad under 12 to 1, stage 3 inj head, BF63 cam, ashley 3 piece manfiold, 3" system etc 2027cc

    Linford, 45mm TB's, YB rods, 12.1 to 1, stage 3 inj head, Phase 5 cam, ashley 3 piece, 2.5" system, 2000cc

    Pete, 45mm TB's, 1.6 diesel rods, 11.1 cr, stage 3 inj head, RL31 cam, 105 speed manifold, ??" system, 2173cc



    Attachment 47837
    The power of the 2.2 drops in the early 7000's. Is the caused by it's cam or is that typical for a stroked pinto?

    I'm running an HT1 in my 2.3 wich runs just under 210 bhp, i wanted to change it for a GTS4 to have more power at higher rev's but if a stroked pinto doesn't go well over 7500 rpm then this would be useless and it would be better to go for the HT1 evolution and shift earlier...

  36. #155
    Racer Decade Plus User DarthVader's Avatar

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Our 2.2 pinto also starts dropping on power after 7500 with the old HT1 and we are making 219Hp

    Is the HT1 evo a new cam or a replacement on the old HT1 - Just got my HT1 imported about 3 months ago and did'nt see the evo in the Kent book. :-(

  37. #156
    Spanner Monkey smokeybeansie's Avatar

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVader View Post
    Our 2.2 pinto also starts dropping on power after 7500 with the old HT1 and we are making 219Hp

    Is the HT1 evo a new cam or a replacement on the old HT1 - Just got my HT1 imported about 3 months ago and did'nt see the evo in the Kent book. :-(
    HT1 Evo is improvement of the original HT1 profile, more lift and torque, same top power but more in the mid range.
    219 on TB's or carbs? 48's? what chokes?
    On the website of Kent cams you can find the evo details
    cheers
    Last edited by smokeybeansie; 22-09-2011 at 16:28.

  38. #157
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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    carbs, 48 chokes if i remember correctly.

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    Racer Decade Plus User dazzle's Avatar

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by smokeybeansie View Post
    The power of the 2.2 drops in the early 7000's. Is the caused by it's cam or is that typical for a stroked pinto?
    The reason my 2.2 dropped at that point was due to the injectors! If you read back you'll see I mentioned that the injectors were maxed out so therefore couldn't give any more!
    This is shown by the fact the higher power output was at a lower rev reading!

    I have now purchased some new injectors, as recommended by Roadsport. I'm going to look at doing a little bit of work to the fuelling system then fit them and get it mapped again!

    I'm not saying it's going to make loads more power but it will be nice to know they aren't working too hard and that I can turn down the Fuel pressure to help the fuel pump out
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto


  41. #160
    World Champion Decade Plus User caprimentle's Avatar

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    its not dead till it's buried!


    T.I.T engineering. "Feel the power!"

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