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Thread: pete a 2.2 200 and a bit bhp pinto

  1. #161
    Racer Decade Plus User dazzle's Avatar

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by caprimentle View Post
    You'll need a lot of Popcorn
    I'm just about to go out of the country again for over 2 weeks! So I wont even think about it till I'm back, then I want to sort the fuel system etc etc!!

    I will hope to get it done before Christmas though
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    i best put the kettle on then
    its not dead till it's buried!


    T.I.T engineering. "Feel the power!"

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    quick question, i noticed you didn't do any valve cut outs in the pistons, but yet your pulling 500" lift and running over 11-1 compression with pistons flush (or just out) the bore, so how did you get away with that? how much lift and compression do you need to be concerned about valve to piston clearance as i would of thought these would be the limits of concern.
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Racer Decade Plus User RWD fords rule's Avatar

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    The main reason that engine did not need valve relief's is that the RL31 cam has a wide LSA - lobe separation angle, the inlet and exhaust lobes are further apart @TDC, the LSA is around 111*, and it has a low duration of 290* measured at the retainer with proper lash, all this means both valves do not have huge lift on overlap, usually around 2.4mm each at the equal lift point, where as cams like HT1, RL32, GTS4, PH5 etc all have around 3.8mm+ lift at the equal lift point on overlap, and this is the main reason why you need valve relief's with these cams and 11.5 to 1 or higher CR in a 2.0 engine

    The full lift figure means nothing in terms of needing valve relief's or not, you could fit cam with 14mm lift and a wide LSA and not need relief's, it is lift around tdc on overlap that matters, you will never bend a valve when it is at full lift unless a belt snaps, but you will easily clip a valve around tdc when both valves are partially open if there isn't enough clearance, 2.5mm is about the safe limit

    Added to that, this engine is 2.2 so it would need less skimmed off the head to reach 11.2 to 1, that would add about an extra .5mm valve clearance

    For any 2.0 pinto over 10.5 to 1 it is a good idea to measure the valve clearance with some weak springs and a dial gauge or with plasticine on top of the piston, under 10.5 to 1 you can pretty much run any cam you like and be sure it will have plenty of clearance so long as you don't swing the cam timing too far each way, 4* each side of the book figure is usually loads of adjustment
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Agree with all Jason has to say above. I ran a pinto with 14.9mm lift using a roller cam and it did not need any valve cutouts. You need to be careful because if you advance or retard the cam the valves will get closer to the piston. A minimum of 2mm or more should be maintained between the piston and valve at all times
    To finish first, you must first finish

  6. #166
    World Champion Decade Plus User caprimentle's Avatar

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    right o.k, see i thought because these rally/race cams all have high lift i thought they would also have quite abit of lift on the over lap, obviously this is not the case, so the best way to check this, is to time it all up with some soft springs, put a DTI gauge on one of the valves when at TDC and push the valve and see how much clearance you have till you hit the piston and i want atleast 2.5 mm minimum really.

    what springs do you use again, you use some from a x-flow dont you?
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    most people use x/flow rocker springs, although i use bmw m10 rocker springs cut in half because i've got lots of them,
    but if your using a set of double valve springs just use the inners to trial build and test clearances with

  8. #168
    World Champion Decade Plus User caprimentle's Avatar

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    no i think i've chosen the rl30 i think, so will be on singles unfortunately, might see if ebay have any x-flow or bmw m10 rocker springs for sale, will be better than my rubber band trick i did last time
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    You should check the clearance a few degrees before and after TDC also. Often the minimum clearance can be 6 or 7 degrees either side.
    To finish first, you must first finish

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    World Champion Decade Plus User caprimentle's Avatar

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    will do, i'll also find out how much adjustment i'll have on the cam then.
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Yes the closet point will be somewhere between 15* btdc and 15*atdc for inlet and exhaust, as Tom said most cams will be closest 6* to 7* each side of TDC

    You will be very safe with the RL30 and 10.5 to 1 or so but it is good to see how far you can swing the cam each side when it is built, mark the pulley where you hit about 2.5mm valve clearance for the inlet and also for the exhaust then you can try any point in between those two marks
    Last edited by RWD fords rule; 02-11-2011 at 23:24.
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    nice one, cheers jason, cheers lads , thought i'd ask as i don't want to start bending valves do i





    any news on bigger injectors yet dazzle?
    its not dead till it's buried!


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  13. #173
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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by caprimentle View Post
    any news on bigger injectors yet dazzle?
    Hi ya

    I've got the new injectors. Just want to re-do the fuel delivery system so I'm happy with it then I'll need to get it back to Dave's
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Hello Graham,

    Do you remember what sort of flow you got from the head on this engine when you ported it? I have widened the base of the port on a head that I am currently doing and I gained quite a bit of high lift flow. I am currently getting 196cfm at 25" water but that figure may not be accurate as I do not have the bench properly calibrated. However I am getting good comparison figures so I know when I am going in the right direction.

    Regards
    Tom
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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    the head was never flow tested because i wasnt striving for ultimate so i just did what i knew would work
    Last edited by Graham; 30-11-2011 at 06:59.

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    You were definitely doing all the right things with the head.
    To finish first, you must first finish

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    I second that, top work, would love to see what you would manage with a full race pinto!
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    theres nothing really trick about it, although few pinto heads are ported on the short turn like this one is

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Just read this all the way through and its great work and some very useful info from everyone.

    Any updates on this? Was it remapped?

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    how is this engine getting on was it ever remapped with the bigger injectors what was the outcome

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    such a good engine

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    same old story though,to my knowledge it was never actually finished.

    in fact i have never built a proper pinto that i regard as having been finished, they either never actually get rolling roaded or even if they do for some reason the rr session is cut short before the mapping is properly finished

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Graham
    Just reading through this thread as I was showing a friend who builds engines in the states.
    Unfortunately, with everything going on in my life, I've not had a lot of time to come on line here at Turbosport.
    However, I can tell you a lot of things happened with this engine and the car it was in!!��

    I'm writing this whilst sat in a seminar at the PRI show in Indianapolis so don't have access to photos/details
    But when I get home, I'll update this thread!

    I will tell you though it did make over 200 ��
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Sounds good!

    Looking forward to the updates then!!!!

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    its not dead till it's buried!


    T.I.T engineering. "Feel the power!"

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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and something bhp pinto

    Intresting......can't wait for the update.

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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and something bhp pinto

    So, it's been a while since I was last on here, so if this doesn't work right I appologise!

    The engine when dyno'd the first time was in this:-



    It went to the Nordschleife (Nurburgring) and definitely surprised some newer cars

    Then I went and bought this:-



    So, the thought process was to take the engine out of the Red one and put it into the Green one


    So this happened!!

    At the time, I did a little playing with the engine, nothing major but I changed the inlet manifold to a straight piped version from HT racing and then I played around with a plenum/air box with a filter attached.


    Ended up with this!

    I also added a front inlet trumpet



    Sorry, but I need to go to work so I'll try to update tomorrow
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and something bhp pinto

    teaser

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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and something bhp pinto

    Update pls...

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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and something bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by dazzle View Post
    So, it's been a while since I was last on here, so if this doesn't work right I appologise!

    The engine when dyno'd the first time was in this:-



    It went to the Nordschleife (Nurburgring) and definitely surprised some newer cars

    Then I went and bought this:-



    So, the thought process was to take the engine out of the Red one and put it into the Green one


    So this happened!!

    At the time, I did a little playing with the engine, nothing major but I changed the inlet manifold to a straight piped version from HT racing and then I played around with a plenum/air box with a filter attached.


    Ended up with this!

    I also added a front inlet trumpet



    Sorry, but I need to go to work so I'll try to update tomorrow
    where's the updates????

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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and something bhp pinto

    Oh mr. dazzle.....

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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and something bhp pinto

    Ay come on where's this update !!!

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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and something bhp pinto

    So, here I am sat in front of the pooter while my boys run an RB211 engine, so I thought I would pop onto Turbosport to check something!

    I've now remembered that I was supposed to update this!

    Me bad!


    On the dyno ready to go


    First run


    After a bit of a tweak


    The magic figure


    The compromise

    Cheers

    Dazzle


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  36. #194
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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and something bhp pinto

    cant argue with that especially as i didnt set out to build a 200bhp motor

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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and a bit bhp pinto

    Nice power, but I wouldn't be happy with the dips in the torque-curve (too rich around 3000 and also 5000 rpm).

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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and a bit bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    Nice power, but I wouldn't be happy with the dips in the torque-curve (too rich around 3000 and also 5000 rpm).
    Well that's good because you don't have to be because it's not yours!!
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and a bit bhp pinto

    Some kind of dip will show up in any fast engine. Specially round 3000 RPM where you are '"off cam" and at the same time the mixture is traveling twice over the carburetor, causing a rich mixture (and little you can do about it, except with fuel injection system). Careful selecting your camshaft is the name of the game. As soon as you got a cam with just as must duration as needed for the engine your are close to ideal. Most rolling road's don't show these dips and bumps.

    Must say, difficult to overlay these measures. Maybe a little more filtering can help, I don't know. 200 Bhp from a 2,2 ltr is't bad at all. And the RPM range it is making this power is approx where I usually see max power to.

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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and a bit bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    Some kind of dip will show up in any fast engine. Specially round 3000 RPM where you are '"off cam" and at the same time the mixture is traveling twice over the carburetor, causing a rich mixture (and little you can do about it, except with fuel injection system). Careful selecting your camshaft is the name of the game. As soon as you got a cam with just as must duration as needed for the engine your are close to ideal. Most rolling road's don't show these dips and bumps.

    Must say, difficult to overlay these measures. Maybe a little more filtering can help, I don't know. 200 Bhp from a 2,2 ltr is't bad at all. And the RPM range it is making this power is approx where I usually see max power to.

    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Getting rid of the torque dip in mine at 3000rpm done it a world of good. I was lucky though as i have throttle bodies and i could just map most of it out. Before it would pull, the 'pull' would drop off and she would just be reving and then i would hit 4000k and she would pull again now it is just seamless[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Before[/COLOR][COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
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    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]After[/COLOR]
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    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)][/COLOR]

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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and a bit bhp pinto

    Yes, you can get rid of this problem (double fueling) with ITB's and programmable ECU. But believe me when I say, with the right cam the problem is not so big with carbs. It's just a matter of finding a cam with just enough duration to make full power (close to). Than you will hit the point where fuel injection has little extra advance compared to carbs. And the dip's and bumps will clean up to. Only, not a lot of people are willing to try or order softer cams, afraid of losing top power but it's not the case.

    248 Kw, this is not a Pinto I guess ?

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    Re: pete a 2.2 200 and a bit bhp pinto

    it is on throttle bodies, i must admit those graphs look so messy i cant see a mixture on them!

    peaks and dips can usually BUT NOT always be mapped out, ive run enough race cars on the rollers to know that its not always possible, if teh primary cause is teh mixture going off at that point then yes to a point, but if its because of a "bad" intake length, or perhaps pulse in the induction caused by say an inner wing or air box, or maybe even exhaust design, you might correct the mixture, you might smooth it out with a timing adjust, but if at those points there simply isnt as much air getting into the combustion chambers you are going to get a dip no matter what the mapper does.

    i bet one thing for sure dazzle wont feel it when he drives the car !

    we up cammed one of my 2.0 8v race motors once, no matter what dave did with the mapping, the new cam hit a hole at about 5500, over the space of 500 rpm it dropped 10 or 15bhp, over the next 500 rpm its got it back and another 10 or 15 on top, on the graph it looked nasty, the fact was in the bottom of the drip, it was still making about 170bhp, if we had pulled a bit of timing out either side it would of looked perfectly normal, on track in a stripped out race car you couldnt feel it at all, it pulled so quickly through the dip you never knew it was there.
    Last edited by Graham; 17-08-2015 at 11:08.

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