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    Zetec inlet options

    Hi All,

    Im currently running a 2 litre silvertop on carbs but am thinking of changing to Efi, i have looked at ITBs but obviously the costs are collosal over 2k for ITBs and management etc. I was looking at other cheaper options to run with standalone management which would give similar performance. Thinking of Link Atom ECU.

    Has anyone succesfully used a plenum such as the Rover unit or custom? I know the standard HO inlet is good but i dont like how it looks.

    Thanks

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    If its not Ford Zetec management anything will be standalone! Jenvey twin TB's £500? + Emerald / DTA / Omex etc. all around £700 + a fuel pump and some sensors / wiring = £1500 or less! If you are handy with a solder glue gun then a DIY Speeduino @ £150 is a good option for a feature packed ECU!
    The Jenveys will fit std DCOE manifolds.

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    If you got a correct tuned set of Webers on your Silvertop and change back to an inlet manifold with plenum and one throttle plate you will be crying hard and very long because of the power and torque left compared to the Webers.

    If you change to ITB and ECU you will also be crying but only because your money is gone, power and torque will stay the same.
    Last edited by Dyno; 17-01-2020 at 14:44.

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    Im running bike carbs and i am sick lookign at them. Cannot get them to idle right at all, have tried and tried but with no success. Im in Northern Ireland and no one will look at them over here, especially as its in a FWD and access is limited.

    I just want to be able to turn the key and go,have a nice idle and no messing about with constantly trying to get the car to run right.

    Management wise i need to stick to the big names as again, tuning companies are limited here and very picky about what they work on.

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    You have hit the nail on the head dj, bike carbs. I think Onyn though like me that you had a pair of Webers fitted.

    Save up and get youself a set of throttle bodies and managment.

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    I was always told that bike carbs were the best thing since sliced bread. Ive never been able to get them to please me. I know what your saying that il spend 2k plus for itbs nd not see any gains but as far as i can see its the only way to sort the car properly.

    I take it you guys dont like bike carbs either then?

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    A lot of people expect to fit scrapper bike carbs (don't be fooled - where do you think the carb conversion guys get their carbs from!) - get loads of power, excellent idle and total fuel economy - its all BS! Bike carbs are no different from any other carbs - they take a lot of setting up even on bikes! They generally operate the same as an 'old' SU carb but no one champions their use except on old Brit stuff - why ? Because they are flakey to set up. If the person doing the tune understands how they work, they can be excellent, but its not just swapping main jets and bingo! I'm a biker and have played with enough bike carbs - road and race to know that ............ I prefer EFI!

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    A lot of people expect to fit scrapper bike carbs (don't be fooled - where do you think the carb conversion guys get their carbs from!) - get loads of power, excellent idle and total fuel economy - its all BS! Bike carbs are no different from any other carbs - they take a lot of setting up even on bikes! They generally operate the same as an 'old' SU carb but no one champions their use except on old Brit stuff - why ? Because they are flakey to set up. If the person doing the tune understands how they work, they can be excellent, but its not just swapping main jets and bingo! I'm a biker and have played with enough bike carbs - road and race to know that ............ I prefer EFI!
    my experience with bike carbs is on bikes, and i always found them a bloody pain to try and get right once the bike was modified away from standard, let alone bunging them on something totally different. in my experience Su's are good, if you have only one! i see far to many rover v8s in here, most of which run badly, we usually get them much better, only to find the next day theres something else wrong!

    me i love EFI, although a pair of dcoe are hard to beat, so for me that is the only two choices
    Last edited by Graham; 18-01-2020 at 12:09.

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    Setup up a carburetor is of course the fist thing needed to get good result. But if you don't put the right program in the ECU, it is exact the same. No difference here.

    OEM bike carbs are 80% vac operated as SU. Only round idle they have a different setup as SU. The biggest drawback is, if you change the vac signal by fitting other cams, you are into black magic. Not easy to get around it. Reason why they often fit flat slide Mikuni's for pure racing. The same for SU. 1 or 2 SU's on a fairly mild road cam, that's easy, fit fast road and it is a problem carb. I've build and designed a few fast road cams for this kind of setups and than work great.

    As a matter of facts, it is always the case with carbs. Go too far on cam design and the EFI will be a better option because it can longer correct the error. But it does not mean you are using the ringt cam and making more power. It is more like, it can stand the wrong cam longer without the same errors.

    Setting up a set of Weber DCOE on a fairly standard 16V engine, I can do with my eyes closed and none here will be able to find 2 Bhp more with EFI (usual less) and when running on the road, no difference noticed. But you have to do it right, the same for the ECU map. I've been running many cars on the road, fitted with EFI and not running great because the tuner still had to do some "final mapping".

    I feel EFI is usual more expensive and rather use this money on other parts making more improvements. From cams to head porting. Second, it makes it ore complex too. More wiring, more .....

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    So you would all still recommend twin 40s or other? I thought no one used them anymore

    I really do begrudge spending 2k+ just to get the car running

    Im currently running a Nodiz using the TPS of the bike carbs, would this need changed as well?

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    Quote Originally Posted by djmca View Post
    So you would all still recommend twin 40s or other? I thought no one used them anymore
    I really do begrudge spending 2k+ just to get the car running
    Im currently running a Nodiz using the TPS of the bike carbs, would this need changed as well?
    Not All LOL! Whilst bike carbs can perform as well as any other carb, its down to knowledge to set them up! Personally - I choose EFI as it is considerably easier for a DIY tinkerer to adjust - drive, log, laptop, adjust! Nothing to buy / waste. In all cases a RR dyno tune to 'polish the edges' is recommended. As you are in Ireland, with its wealth of rallying preperation, i'd have thought the use of twin webers would like be best / cheapest option for a local fix as your Nodiz can be retained even if you have to add the TPS to the new carbs! If you just want the car running then fit a twin choke downdraft 28/32 weber or suchlike - tried and tested but still needs tuning to suit application!

    @ Onyd - No one disputes that there is very little difference @ WOT between DCOE's, DHLA's or TB's, it is without doubt that idle and mid range running / performance can be significantly better with TB's / full engine management? But i'd wager money with you that a set of bike slide carbs (set up correctly and on an engine that can utilise the airflow!) could match or beat your 2bhp claim at the top end!

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    Thanks all for the replies. I have been running the bike carbs for a while and although the car pulls fine, the idle and inconsistency of running bugs the hell outta me!

    My options that i can see are
    1. Spend anywhere up to £500 paying someone to look at the bike carbs and get them right (which i am now worried is not guaranteed)
    2. Spend around £1k for 5 hole Webers etc and if possible fit a TPS to retain the Nodiz
    3. Spend 2k+ on ITBs and ECU

    Options 2 and 3 will require a setup session by a specialist in addition

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    Not All LOL! Whilst bike carbs can perform as well as any other carb, its down to knowledge to set them up! Personally - I choose EFI as it is considerably easier for a DIY tinkerer to adjust - drive, log, laptop, adjust! Nothing to buy / waste. In all cases a RR dyno tune to 'polish the edges' is recommended. As you are in Ireland, with its wealth of rallying preperation, i'd have thought the use of twin webers would like be best / cheapest option for a local fix as your Nodiz can be retained even if you have to add the TPS to the new carbs! If you just want the car running then fit a twin choke downdraft 28/32 weber or suchlike - tried and tested but still needs tuning to suit application!

    @ Onyd - No one disputes that there is very little difference @ WOT between DCOE's, DHLA's or TB's, it is without doubt that idle and mid range running / performance can be significantly better with TB's / full engine management? But i'd wager money with you that a set of bike slide carbs (set up correctly and on an engine that can utilise the airflow!) could match or beat your 2bhp claim at the top end!
    I do believe, specially the slide carbs Mikuni can still beat the Weber. Never tested back to back. Until date, all tests I did, EFI could not. As I was comparing, carbs win from EFI.

    About better idle and mid running, I think this is just about when I say "correct tuned". Most RR can setup the carb at full open throttle pretty well but have no idea how to solve mid range problems. Most never ever test anything at light load with the RR. Honest, it is not easy on an RR at all. I prefer the water brake with almost zero inertia or test drive over RR.

    Idle problems, that's just a matter of synchro and setup the idle screws right. No EFI can do better.

    And believe me, the number off correct setup EFI systems is also small. I remember my friends Millington engine was not running very wel after tuning, than they have been driving on the road and did some remapping. Sorry, poor form of tuning knowing this engine was already on a dyno. It should have been spot on. I know, they spend 1, max 2h on an RR or dyno and finish. I remember it always took a full day to map an engine.
    Last edited by Dyno; 21-01-2020 at 12:14.

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    The general opinion seems to be that Webers can be setup the easiest and are around 1k cheaper than ITBs with ECU and similar performance

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    I am old School like Graham and Onyd on this subject and nothing looks better than a set of side draught carbs under the bonnet of a period car, but I don't see the point in you spending over a grand + set up on a set of 40 Webers. I would at least invest in a pair of 45's and choke them accordingly, that way you have a decent size set of carbs if you ever decide to upgrade the engine.

    To me EFI seems to be the only sensible way to go even if it is a lot more money. You are going to find it a lot easier for someone to tune it with a laptop than you are with Jets for a set of Webers. We struggled in England 25 years ago to get a decent sevice at a Rolling Road and would often have to travel over 120 miles just to reach a place that was suitable. Carburettor tuning is becoming a dying art and finding a specialist that knows their job is even harder. For that reason I would have to go for the throttle bodies if funds permit.

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    I would ago for the 45mm if you have some more tuning in mind later. For example, I would spend the other 1K in a set of cams and some other goodies that bring me real power increase.

    Please note, the numbers of RR who can setup EFI correct are also difficult to find (not only carbs). It is not because they have a PC, laptop, smartphone and RR they can tune engines. I'm always surprised to see how poor the mapping looks like. I once had an engine in, extreme expensive V6 engine BTW, Magnetti Marelli ECU and all settings for ign. where set at 26°. All over !!!!!!!!! and expensive version of a "locked distributor" !!!

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    I am looking at Weber 45 DCOE carbs with the Nodiz or ITBs with Link ECU, i would be confident to set the Webers up and then RR it for fine tuning. Again, here in N Ireland tuning companies are limited that deal with EFi and ECUs, even at that they are vey select about what type of stuff they work on

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    if you go to webers and its a standard silvertop then you should get a pretty good start point for jetting by using google ?

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    Ive made a decision and the bike carbs/Nodiz are provisionally sold

    Going to ITBs and ECU. If your gonna do it, do it right eh?

    Just need to make a call on whether i stretch the budget and buy a plug and play package such as sold by Burton Power etc. or try to mix and match ITBs/ECU and wire myself to keep budget costs down. I dont plan to do any mad tuning in the near future, just want the car to run perfectly.

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    I shouldn't bother with Burton if I were you. Speak to Dave Walker at Emerald, he'll be able to supply you with your requirements, give you instalastion advice and a good base Map.

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    Quote Originally Posted by djmca View Post
    Ive made a decision and the bike carbs/Nodiz are provisionally sold

    Going to ITBs and ECU. If your gonna do it, do it right eh?

    Just need to make a call on whether i stretch the budget and buy a plug and play package such as sold by Burton Power etc. or try to mix and match ITBs/ECU and wire myself to keep budget costs down. I dont plan to do any mad tuning in the near future, just want the car to run perfectly.
    graham can sometimes offer very good price on emerald although a basic second hand older generation ecu will do all you need.

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    I have looked into all the options on the inlet side as I'm doing the same conversion but with st170.. can I ask what power are you running and what mods you have what carbs you have on .. I chosen to go down the bike carb route aswell but will have zzr1100 with vvt control and nodiz.... I would only really spend the money on managment if you are going to decide to turbo the zetec (personally) and then I would use an efi manifold with an me221 ecu or maybe an ecumasterornif you want to do it really cheap as megasquirt... as if you go turbo you will see the best on results on management... itb are really good aswell but I think there alot of money for what you are going to get...
    Personally I would bite the bullet and get the a good dyno on the bike carbs and see how it goes... as this wont cost that much to do and make the decision after that (personally opinion ofcourse)

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    I am running a stock engine bar stainless manifold and exhaust, power estimated at around 160, and ZX9R carbs. No, the bike carbs and Nodiz are definately going, sick looking at them.

    Undecided as to what route i am taking so going to take my time, do some research and make my decision when i am 100% sure

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    I would keep the Nodiz, replace the bike carbs with Webers (just because it is too difficult to find people who can correct tune the Mikuni's). Find yourself a decent rolling road tuner.

    Even if you do fit ECU and ITB, the result will not be any better as the tune in it, same for the carb be not even halve the money. Specially because you already got the Nodiz.

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    I think his problem is finding someone with a Rolling Road that can or are willing to tune the Webers in Ireland. It's amazing how many RR operators have no idea how to tune and adjust carbs and the other thing is they keep next to no jets in stock.

    I think you are doing the right things binning the Bike carbs, however the decision is only yours to make djmca as to which way to jump.

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    The limited availability of rolling road and knowledge on ECU systems other than big brand names is a pain! You find that tuners only recommend the make that they supply i.e. many people have recommended the ME221 ECU however i dont know of anyone that maps them here. I had the same issue with the Nodiz.

    It would be easier to find someone to tune the Webers than the bike carbs however they are viewed as old hat now and that old skool knowledge is slowly but surely dying away. Again, i know they can be time consuming to setup right and theres no guarantee that they will be a success.
    Last edited by djmca; 29-01-2020 at 16:47.

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    Re: Zetec inlet options

    You first have to find yourself a dyno (RR) operator, ask them which ECU's they service. Not opposite, if you first buy an ECU and can't find a tuner working with them close enough where you live, it will be a disaster from day 1.

    There is indeed no guarantee you can find someone able to tune your Webers (if you would buy them) but it's about the same for ECU's.

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