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Thread: Pinto piston rings

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    Bodger

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    Pinto piston rings

    Hi all,

    I have a standard 1600 xflow in my mk2 Escort and have a chance of getting a 2ltr pinto off a mate. The pinto ran fine in his Capri but was a little smokey on the overrun. It could be the stem seals need changing,but whilst the engine is out I was thinking about checking the bores and fitting new piston rings. Question is,how do I know which size rings to get? Do you go by the size on top of the piston or does the bore require measuring by a machine shop?

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    the size on the piston will be good enough, BUT you know you will need to hone or deglaze the bores first?

    also these days it unusual to find a pinto which only needs a set of rings most need reboring

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Hi Graham,

    Yep, I understand that the measurements all have to be right,the bores would need de glazing at the least if new rings were fitted,but maybe worth speaking to my local engine guy as well to see how much a rebore would be as new rings alone may not be good enough. All depends on cost, my crossflow runs fine but for more power I thought it would be cheaper to re-ring and overhaul the pinto head instead of getting the crossflow tuned. The pinto should have more useable torque as opposed to a cammed and tuned up xflow.

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    i quite agree about usable torque and power delivery, but i can guarantee you your quick pinto overhaul wont stop at rings, almost certainly once its apart you will find even if it doesnt want a rebore it will want new bearings and or a crank regrind

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Modify the crossflow!

    Changing to a different type of engine looks easy but it really isn't. For a start the inlet and exhaust are on different sides; so is the alternator. It's quite an involved project; I know because I've done it! A rebore to 1700, fast road camshaft, higher compression pistons and a well ported cylinder head will make a very rapid little engine, especially with a set of 40s (or bike carbs on a well constructed manifold). Also, the crossflow is 25 kilos lighter.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Pintos too...

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Quote Originally Posted by Memphis View Post
    Modify the crossflow!

    Changing to a different type of engine looks easy but it really isn't. For a start the inlet and exhaust are on different sides; so is the alternator. It's quite an involved project; I know because I've done it! A rebore to 1700, fast road camshaft, higher compression pistons and a well ported cylinder head will make a very rapid little engine, especially with a set of 40s (or bike carbs on a well constructed manifold). Also, the crossflow is 25 kilos lighter.

    Don't get me wrong, I like Pintos too...
    i mostly agree here, the only thing i would say is dont bore a x/f to 1700 just for the sake of it, yeah 1700 sounds much faster than 16 something, but as these blocks get rarer, its a shame to use all there "lives" up in one go, and the power gain from going 1700 isnt great its only 5% capacity increase when starting with a standard bore size, if reboring your engine to make it good again means going to + 0.040 or +0.060 then gain from going 1700 is quite small

    and have a chance of getting a 2ltr pinto off a mate. The pinto ran fine in his Capri
    pinto into escort is a classic swap and not hard if you have all the bits and have done it before, but its not always a walk in the park,

    it sounds simple, but you need to change sump and oil pickup, both parts of engine mounts, exhaust, fuel lines, wiring both starter and alternator are on different sides of the engine, will most likely need to modify the shell to take a bigger rad, you will need new cooling hoses, if your gearbox is from an x/f especially its if an 11/1300 box it will be on borrowed time
    Last edited by Graham; 29-02-2020 at 15:11.

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    I think I would be ok with the conversion, i converted from an auto to a 5 speed type 9 over this winter so modifying the front rad panel and welding in a lower panel to take the bigger rad isn't too much of an issue. I would have to re route the fuel pipe as well. I would have to get the proper ally sump and mountings, all this can be bolted on when the engine is rebuilt. My only issue is the cost of getting the xflow tuned for the sake of a bit of work on the pinto. Getting the xflow rebored, new pistons, a camshaft, ported head and twin 40s will be very expensive, and wont the power be higher in the rev range to get the benefit compared to the standard pinto which would have more drive ability?
    Last edited by Mk2Neil; 29-02-2020 at 21:01.

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    yes but your going to rebuild a pinto and fit that instead, dont see how thats going to be cheaper.

    bcf2 cam and raised cr will give a gt spec x/flow close to standard pinto power, it wont have the same torque but will be more revy. you certainly dont need a pair of 40's to make 100bhp which is all a standard pinto is rated at.

    TBH i think as a nice road car a pinto does make for a nicer job, but i highly doubt you a rebuild one and fit it cheaper than getting an x/f to give std pinto power

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    I hear you on that. Must admit, I think the crossflow does belong in a mk2,they just look better and you have the benefit of them being lighter too. So if I was to stick with it, aside from the cam change, would I need to go oversize or 1300 pistons and would these need to be machined for the camshaft as well? I will speak to a local engine builder too for prices,but I know you guys have vast knowledge on these tunes. Thanks for answering what has already been asked a million times though!

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    1300 pistons will raise the compression to about 10.3:1 A bcf2 cam is the maximum which will fit without needing deeper valve cutouts in the pistons, the cam catalogs all say bcf3 is the max cam that will do, they are wrong, un-machined pistons and BCF3 often give valve/piston contact

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Thanks Graham. If I was to go oversize on pistons,would you recommend 1300 or 1600 ones? I still would want the reliability there.

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    1300 every time, its a cheap and easy compression rate, reliability wont be effected.

    you can raise the compression using 1600 pistons, but you have to machine a chunk off both the top of the block and the piston

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    All the modifications on the X flow are assuming you have a flat non chambered head.

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Yep it's got the later flat non chambered head Great feedback guys, I've pretty much swayed back to the crossflow again now. Any choice when it comes to piston brands?

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    not really all the standard replacement pistons are pretty much the same

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Quote Originally Posted by Mk2Neil View Post
    Yep it's got the later flat non chambered head Great feedback guys, I've pretty much swayed back to the crossflow again now. Any choice when it comes to piston brands?
    That clears up the confusion over the head type.

    KC 234 cam was the one that quite a few used back in the day. You are going to need a decent modified big valve head and twin 40's to get the power that you are looking for. I can't help but think you might be better off fitting a more modern 16v engine that would give a lot more power and torque.

    I can appreciate you're wanting to keep it looking traditional under the bonnet and I agree with you the X flow does look right in the engine bay. Memphiss or Honkey that post on here might be able to offer some sound advice on what spec to tune it to has they are both renown X flow experts.

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    That clears up the confusion over the head type.

    KC 234 cam was the one that quite a few used back in the day. You are going to need a decent modified big valve head and twin 40's to get the power that you are looking for.
    .
    unless i read it wrong, he is looking for standard pinto power, thats 100bhp, or 110 if your talking mk2 rs2000. you certainly dont need a big valve head 40's and 234 cam to see that power. you can do that with a bcf2, 1300 pistons 32/36 and a cleaned up lightly tickled head

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    unless i read it wrong, he is looking for standard pinto power, thats 100bhp, or 110 if your talking mk2 rs2000. you certainly dont need a big valve head 40's and 234 cam to see that power. you can do that with a bcf2, 1300 pistons 32/36 and a cleaned up lightly tickled head

    That's exactly what I would be looking for Graham. It already has the 32/36 twin choke,new k&n filter, 4 branch Ashley manifold and 2 inch system plus a slightly lightened flywheel which was done with the auto to manual conversion. I did change the head gasket and decoked the head recently too due to an oil leak from the rocker feed at the head gasket. The bores looked ok, but some cross hatching was worn away,so I'm guessing it is still on its original bore size (i didn't take note of the piston size) which would be a good excuse for a piston oversize. So 1300 pistons and a fast road cam would be ideal,as well as a check of the bottom end with new shells should make a more fun engine. The head can be given some porting too which will all help with a basic old school tune. This lot will cost a chunk, but no where near as much as a zetec conversion. I was going to originally go pinto,but if it was a sorted pukka engine,yes maybe a no brainer to fit straight in with all the RS bits,but as the one I was looking at needs a rebuild, it will be more cost effective as stated on here to get the original crossflow rebuilt and mildly tuned. It's only going to be a weekend fun car and I wont be red lining it everywhere, but I do still love an old fashioned tune up!

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    a standard 1600gt engine should make 84bhp, so the target should be easily achievable, and it will be nice a free reving.

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    I recon a few horses have galloped off since 1979 lol, so it can only be a bonus! I'll drop by Lyndale engines after work tomorrow for a chat as I'm in Peterborough.

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    a standard 1600gt engine should make 84bhp, so the target should be easily achievable, and it will be nice a free reving.
    Whoops i didn't read what BHP Neil was trying to achieve but it seems a lot of work and expence for such a small gain. I know someone that had a 1600 Sport with the mods you are surgesting but with a 234 cam and it seemed quite quick 35 years ago but now the owner comments how slow it was by todays standard.

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    it seemed quite quick 35 years ago but now the owner comments how slow it was by todays standard.
    tell me about it, 30 years ago i remember going out in a mk1 with bcf2, head work and 40's, felt like a rocket ship back then! as did my 90bhp lancia fulvia! in a similar vein Ive got a V8 P6 Rover they were actually fast in there day, ive just converted mine to 5 speed manual and fitted a lightened flywheel at the same time, its livened it up fair bit, but your average vauxhall zafira could out run it, hense im building a bigger 4.6 for it, but thats only going to give it similar speed to my everyday road car a diesel 4pot one series beemer

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Its called progress . . . . . . but progress is a fatty - more metal = safer = heavier = more power = more brakes = safer = heavier et al ! But put those engines in ltwt, tissue paper thickness steel old skool cars and wow - i'm all for adding 75% power increase in an escort for a £1k and some graft AND you get better fuel range too BONUS!

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Yep, Its all relevant. This is my first mk2 since I had them on the road in the early 90s and they were just 1300 xflows. A modern car will pee all over a tuned xflow nowadays, and the only way to compete is to fit a modern 16v zetec and the like, but it's the nostalgia of an old xflow that I like. It is what it is, and getting the work done,even though the concept was done many moons ago will be an improvement on how it is now in standard form! For what I'm going to use it for,its a bit of weekend fun and old skool Fords have always been great to tinker with. Maybe in a few years I'll go zetec,but for now, a lightly tuned xflow will be good enough!

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Oh - don't get me wrong, a nice x-flow or Pinto is still a good old skool engine but as the manufacturers chase the safety aspect, cars get heavier and need more power just to keep up / comparative performance - just look at the VW Golf GTI, started out as a 8v 1600 and sub 1 ton, now they are 2.0L and bloody heavy and the old car will still piss all over the newer car in handling and day to day hooning around, you just pay for it with fuel consumption LOL!

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    I remember bolting on twin choke webbers and webber air filters on a 1300 xflow and expecting miracles. To be honest,it just made a nicer noise and drank more fuel
    Must admit, the twin 40s sound the nuts though...

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    World Champion Decade Plus User alladdin's Avatar

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    why not just check the pinto over first ? its surprising how well the bottom ends can hold up and if your only looking at a "hot" standard tune then a good hone and rings can work well. from memory you say it was running ..........

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Yeah it was running ok apart from smoking a bit and a tappy top end. iirc one of the plugs used to oil up a bit too,so the crossflows good enough for now I recon!

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Spoke to Lyndale engines, he funnily enough has a set of very low mileage +60 thou 1300cc pistons on his shelf that an old customer did a race meeting with before wanting to go +90, so I could get those for a good price. He said the crank should polish but a grind is £150 if required and it's best to buy the cam kit with followers and the bcf2 would be good and give driveability all round. Quite a good price to do the bottom end and dial in the cam. Think I'm going to go with this later in the year,I have the big valve head so that can be ported as and when.

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    The Crossflow head is just about the most difficult 8valve iron head to port properly. It's not something that can be done at home without a lot of very hard work, knowledge and the right tools. Most so-called crossflow porters make it look all nice and shiny without actually removing much metal at all, so you end up with a good looking head that gives very disappointing results.

    The ports look big at the manifold face, but actually slim down to the same size as the exhaust ports before entering the throat/valve guide area. Modifying them requires the removal of a LOT of metal, something that hardly anyone does! There is no down side to a well ported head, even on a fast road engine.

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Welcome to do mine if you like mate I guess I'll have it done eventually, but anything's better than standard

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    i have a sugestion, drive a pinto car first - you wont want to struggle on with the xf after

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    I dis drive my mates Capri with the pinto in, it went ok I guess. Never driven a pinto in a mk2 Escort, but I though about what I'm actually going to use the car for and its driving to events and shows at weekends and generally hooning around local country roads. So I think the original xflow would be much easier to whip out, give to the engine builder and shove back in again. I'm just happy to have another Escort again after 25 years!
    Last edited by Mk2Neil; 05-03-2020 at 10:56.

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    The only think now is the ancient decision of cam choice. I guess the BCF2 is a good cam that comes in lower down than the BCF3 and doesnt need any piston work. I prefer a bit more torquey power low down and not to be chasing the power band, but would it be better to go for the BCF3 or another alternative? If not, the BCF2 sounds ok to me.

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    Re: Pinto piston rings

    Going to strip and look at the pinto now. As car shows have all been cancelled,It will give me something to do! Stay safe guys.

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