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Thread: Pinto Carb Turbo build

  1. #41
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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    I was surprised to to find more power with carb than the EFI.
    if it was done without intercooling the way the carb evaporiates fuel will reduce the intake temp more than an efi setup, i also wonder about air distribution given the design of the efi plenum

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    I do agree and have seen several proofs that a good carb setup will indeed deliver the same power levels as a good EFI setup. But my experience from tuning some Megasquirt cars is also the biggest benefit of EFI (or really programmable management) is the possibility to build a good ignition curve, to be able to advance and retard the way the engine likes. That is much harder to do with a mechanical dizzy. Another thing is that today, for most people it's easier to tune the EFI using a computer, than working with carbs with their jets, emulsion tubes and venturi rings...

    It would have been interesting to compare the logs and settings to my Megasquirt Pinto turbo. Maybe I could learn something :-)

    An "old saying" here in Sweden is that the EFI Pinto manifold is good up until around 160 bhp, then it starts to be restrictive. I have now tried another kind of intake but TBH I don't really see a difference that is noticeable. But the intake I have is far from ideal, another one is in the planning.

    Regards

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    the point when efi really scores assuming you use an ecu that can handle boost control, is that you can map the boost, so you can back it off as the revs come up and get a really flat torque curve then perhaps put a bit more back in at higher revs if needed,

    in my view in any high boost situation you really need the ability to put the spark advance exactly where it needs to be and you just cant do that mechanically, please note here i said high boost, if your only running a few pounds of boost the timing is nothing like as critical

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    Completely agree with Gustaf and Graham. You can or may not compare hard working engine with fun engines on the road. I would not even consider using a carb on a race turbo engine. But still you can be surprised how far you can come with a carb.

    Ignition mapping will be your biggest problem, I use a distributor tester and lots of experience. But still have to use a compromise. No compromise in EFI tuning.

    And as Gustaf wrote, today most people can easier work with PC and EFI than with jets. I've got a awful lot of experiences with carbs and it still took me 5 days to get it right!!! But sometimes I feel some people advice EFI to quick. Sometimes it is easier and cheaper to stay with carbs. It's not because your idle jet is blocked, you will need EFI to fix it. I thing we all agree. The R5 carb proved how simple it can be.

    BTW, where is the guy who started this topic? Is het still reading? Is he getting the right information where he was asking for? Does he has other questions than the one we are explaining?

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    Power is not made from the way the fuel is put in. It's the tuning and set up. If you just use the factory ford ecu it's not going to be mapped right unless you can reprogram it.
    Fit omex or mega squirt and you can set it up.
    Carbs, yes you can change the jetting and some degree alter the dizzy.

    The main thing is setting things up to run correctly. Then you make power.

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    BTW, where is the guy who started this topic? Is het still reading? Is he getting the right information where he was asking for? Does he has other questions than the one we are explaining?
    Yes think all the answers are done.

    When I started doing mine, google works wonders. Once you get a bit of an understanding of what's involved with adding a turbo then it's a case of putting the but together.

    So.
    Get a turbo.
    Get a manifold.
    Get a fueling system.
    Get an intercooler.
    Get a dump valve (recirc or atmos)
    Fit it and have fun.

    Sounds easy and it can be.

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    Been thinking today, would a larger plenum chamber below the carb make any difference to the power/torque?

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    I don't think so but never tried. It is not such a good idea to have that chamber bigger, you will find drops of fuel collecting to the wall and have a situation which is about the same as freezing. You have to keep "speed" in the air to keep the drops mixed. Also dangerous for back fires with lots of force.

    I don't think you will have to change anything on the original plenum. It is a turbo, cam will have little overlap and not response to much to "tuned lengths" like an engine with a big camshaft. You will have more than enough power like it is right now.

    I should more concentrate myself to "how can I make the engine strong enough it will survive the power".

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    Onyd could you let me know exactly what you did to your carb ? I have a turbo technics kit from a 1600 cvh and want to use the carb on my pinto ! Any help would be appreciated ! Just want to save myself some time !

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    My Father and Brother started Developing a Pinto Turbo back in the mid 80`s, the Spec was, skimmed 60 thou Cosworth Pistons on Std Cosworth Rods in a linered Std Pinto Block. Escort Mk3 Turbo on a Turbo Technics Exhaust Manifold Blowing through a Std Carb. They always suffered Fuel blow back above 10psi Boost, they even tried a pair of Dellotos off a Turbo Lotus Espirit but they still had Fuel Blow back. They tried a different Cam but they found the Std one worked best.
    It never got on the Rollers but it certainly pulled well from very low Revs with bags of Torque. Good Luck with your Engine, it should n`t be to difficult to get more Power but I think you`ll need Forged Pistons if you are wanting to run higher Boost.

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    Hi,

    I believe Turbo Technics was using the DMTT turbo version carburetor of the DMTL series. No idea how they exactly looked like inside (I mean extra channels, etc..) I'm still further modifying my carburetor to be used as a "universal" turbo carburetor for some cheap turbo kits. For this reason I can't put all details on internet because I still want to gain some money back out of it sooner or later. But I did not had time to finish my latest mods. This winter I also developed a new Porsche 911 carburetor set, had to take patent + copyright and it took all my spare time. I found it more urgent as the turbo carb.

    I made several versions and some changes where radical, not so easy to do. But after all these mods I found the carb was still not what I wanted, turned back to a more or less standard version and I added some easier solutions on the outside. The problem I always faced with was, when rich enough at top, it gave more than enough fuel everywhere, also where I did not need it. Not over rich but fuel where it was not needed. Typical carb / turbo problem. I my latest tests I added some parts so I could tell the carb when on or off boost mode. Not just a switch that add extra fuel from a given boost pressure but more a switch that comes in at boost but progressive enrich the mixture with boost. At off boost mode it will run lean as it should. It's still a switch point but very acceptable.


    If you want to use this carb for a track day racer or any other race, it's a lot easier. Just put big enough jets in it and it will be working. Specially the second stage need big jets. It will be to rich of boost but will not hurt the fun. It will work better with some of my mods but it all depends what you are looking for. For street use the DMTL need more work but I guess on your carb it should be done already.

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    With fuel blow back, you mean they did not raised the fuel pressure with boost? You should always do this.

    Yes, standard cam work very well, only the ERSON 134 was working better in my turbo engines. None of the other cams I tried where working, not even the so called turbo cams for Pinto. If on a budget, replace valve springs with heavier version and leave the cam standard.

    I should keep boost on standard pistons max 800 mbar, preferable lower. I had broken pistons at approx 1 bar. Broken ring lands

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    Yes it was the Fuel Pressure from memory. I think if they had the pressure set too High the floats would leak Petrol. It was all a long time ago and my memory is not what it once was.
    Kent Cams did a Turbo profile at the time but one was never tried.they had to cut back on their Budget as it was starting to eat money.

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    I've been testing Piper and KentCams turbo profiles. The best made the same power and torque but all approx 1000 RPM later. The rest made less power. Don't worry to much about the camshaft, it will make more than enough power for the standard parts. You get lots of torque compared to atmo pinto's.

    You need a fuel pressure regulator with inlet manifold compensation. Burton list them. Then no problem with fuel to the carb.

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    very interesting read throughout,as I'm toying with a 1800 pinto build with standard spec. I know it's not the best engine,I'm just seeing what can be achieved with little boost from a K16 minus an actuator,but using an external wastegate. It'll be blowing through a dgav
    http://performanceforums.com/forums/...-67157010.html

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    I highly recommend to use the later DMTL style carburetor. It seals a lot better, you don't have to open it to re-jet and they are everywhere superior compared to the older DGAV. You can find them on many Ford models and other later cars. But be sure the second stage is manual, not vacuum. Or use Renault turbo carb. 1800 or not, it will make a lot of torque. You will blow away every atmo Pinto.

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    Where did you get the T25 from? Can also be small for your engine running 12 psi. If he can't get the gasses out of the cylinders, you will build up pressure and choke the exhaust. Also compressor size can be small. You can have lost of boost but still no air flow if the turbo is working out of his turbo map. You can raise the boost but only generate heat (and this give you a higher boost reading). Had this before. I suggest you use something like a Sierra Cosworth 2WD turbo (or the bigger one from the first 4X4 Escort if you go drag racing). Unless your T25 is modified or Ball bearing type. Cosworth turbo work fine, I prefer to use a 0,63 AR on the exhaust instead of the original 0,49 AR from the Cosworth. Just to keep the exhaust side cooler and save valves.

    Most turbo setups upto 700 mbar are easy power makers with little to no risk. If you go higher you must pay attention. 18 psi is something good for Santa-Pod but can be to much as a daily driver. Lucky you have never broken a piston land. But you can make it save again using water/methanol injection. I've been using it more than once on blower setups. They generate so much torque low in the revs (1500 RPM and almost max torque), just where pinking starts so easy. Usually turbo's start making turbo pressure late enough for not being in this danger zone but still they can. The simple version with windscreen pump is all you need. Start spraying when boost set in and OK. Believe me it does miracles.

    Ever measured the power of your engine?
    Using methanol injection to cool and stop detonation. I used to have some figures on how much to inject per 10 seconds once boost pressure starts is there any information on this tuning the amount for certain levels of boost?? I have searched but found nothing

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    I can't remember exact but I do know my water injection system was spraying 3 Ltr water / hour if you would keep it in continue use.

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    I have an adjustable Hobbs switch to set at the boost pressure to start injection but it’s hard to find a starting point for the amount

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    Re: Pinto Carb Turbo build

    What kind of boost are your running? If your run let say 700 mbar, you fire up the water injection round +/- 300 mbar. The quantity does not matter that much. You start injecting and if no longer pinking it is ok. You don't need much water. In theory when you inject a fixed quantity like with a simple water pump and solenoid, you inject more water at 3000 RPM compared to 6000 RPM but that's not a big deal. Risk of pinking a a lot bigger at 3000 RPM compared to 6000 RPM.

    I've tested mine on a uphill motorway. Engine loaded to run up hill (engine on boost) switch of water, 2-3 seconds and pinking, switch back on, instant pinking gone. I was using 50% distillate water, 50% Methanol

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