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Thread: fuel system questions

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    fuel system questions

    I'm at the stage now where i am looking to purchase my fuel tank, pump fuel lines etc. for the escort rebuild but i'm hoping you guys can clarify a few questions i still have.

    The engine is going to be approx 250bhp 2.3 duratec on TB's

    Is the Bosch 044 pump worth the extra money? i have seen sytec etc. equivalents for less than half the price, do i need to run a pre-filter? i know my saph cossie didnt have one.

    The ralloy fuel tank im looking at has -6 and -8 fittings, do i use the -8 from the tank to the pump then convert to -6 the rest of the way or does it need to be -8 all the way to the fuel rail then convert to -6 on the return line?

    Should i run solid pipes i.e kunifer or stick with rubber (braided) pipes, does it really matter?

    Thanks in advance

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Bosch pump much better quality. You can run 2 x jic 6 for supply and return. Rubber hose has a life, and you can’t run rubber through the car...only PTFE or hard pipe, which I would always use in or underneath.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    you dont "need" to run a pre-filter, but having had pumps jam due to tiny bits of foreign material i would strongly recommend doing so

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    you dont "need" to run a pre-filter, but having had pumps jam due to tiny bits of foreign material i would strongly recommend doing so
    Agreed - I had a brand new pump jam up with less than 1/2hr total use - save £20 = cost £100! Also if the pump has a BIG inlet make sure pipe from tank / swirl pot is at least as big. Choking down causes cavitation in the pump = noise, fluctuating pressure and over heating pump = short life.

    For most installations not making 450 - 500hp, a 044 is overkill and heavy on the battery @11amps

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    fuel system questions

    Cheers guys i decided on the 044 to make it future proof incase i decided to turbo or supercharge, the standard cossie pump wasnt a great deal cheaper either

    Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk

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    Re: fuel system questions

    A higher flow pump will last much longer than a low flow pump having to work harder.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    Agreed - I had a brand new pump jam up with less than 1/2hr total use - save £20 = cost £100!
    my case i towed a car 300miles to an event, pump jammed after half a lap. that was it a very expensive weekend over all for the sake of a filter

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    A higher flow pump will last much longer than a low flow pump having to work harder.
    Why? They both will be running at whatever speed they are designed to run at, only difference is the FPR will bypass more fuel back to tank. Now, if the running voltage of the pump could be varied, then I would agree with you!

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Because a higher flow pump will be operating lower down on its curve, drawing less current, thus running at a lower temp. More to do with amps rather than volts. Speed is fixed, current is relative to pump sizing / flow curves.
    Last edited by Erikmex; 13-08-2020 at 08:55.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    Why? They both will be running at whatever speed they are designed to run at, only difference is the FPR will bypass more fuel back to tank. Now, if the running voltage of the pump could be varied, then I would agree with you!
    Thats what i thought in my simplistic view as well.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    A higher flow pump operating lower on its curve will always draw less current.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    I suppose it's like running up a hill but maintianing the same speed as you did on the flat. Pumping fuel at 40 psi is easy but to maintian the same flow at 60psi the pump must draw more current to work harder.

    sorry for the analogy (i run)

    from what i see of some the US you tube guys they can now use their ecu's to vary and also bring in a second pump at certain high load points
    Last edited by wildo105e; 13-08-2020 at 09:24.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Quote Originally Posted by 5tox View Post
    I'm at the stage now where i am looking to purchase my fuel tank, pump fuel lines etc. for the escort rebuild but i'm hoping you guys can clarify a few questions i still have.

    The engine is going to be approx 250bhp 2.3 duratec on TB's

    Is the Bosch 044 pump worth the extra money? i have seen sytec etc. equivalents for less than half the price, do i need to run a pre-filter? i know my saph cossie didnt have one.

    The ralloy fuel tank im looking at has -6 and -8 fittings, do i use the -8 from the tank to the pump then convert to -6 the rest of the way or does it need to be -8 all the way to the fuel rail then convert to -6 on the return line?

    Should i run solid pipes i.e kunifer or stick with rubber (braided) pipes, does it really matter?

    Thanks in advance
    From what i have found from my own dabblings, I assume you are getting atank with integral swirl pot so that i suspect will be at least -8. The inlet on 044 is quite large ialso think -8 is about as large as you can go on a pre filter with say a sytec filter. There are bigger filters out there though. I found gravity feed on -6 starved the 044 pump and it was very noisey.

    The rest i did in 8mm copper (long runs under the car) and used an - fittings from copper to the other connections with PTFE lined hose.
    Last edited by wildo105e; 13-08-2020 at 09:33.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    When i said -6 for supply and return i meant from pump discharge, i use -8 on the pump suction side, -6 flows enough on the output side of the pump, the short line from tank / swirl pot to pump suction is -8. But mains lines for supply and return are -6

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    When i said -6 for supply and return i meant from pump discharge, i use -8 on the pump suction side, -6 flows enough on the output side of the pump, the short line from tank / swirl pot to pump suction is -8. But mains lines for supply and return are -6
    That's pretty much how mine will turn out in the final install. an -6 works well with 8mm hard lines as well. My swirl pot has the 044 pump inlet submerged in the tank so will get max feed to the inlet. Look up hosefittingsuk on ebay they have loads of fittings even if you don't buy from them their shop is a good thing to look at for planning etc

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Thats where i got mine from, they were cheaper than the likes of Viper, Torques etc,

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Quote Originally Posted by wildo105e View Post
    Look up hosefittingsuk on ebay they have loads of fittings even if you don't buy from them their shop is a good thing to look at for planning etc
    Funnily enough I found them this morning while browsing, an thought they looked very reasonbly priced.

    I'd prefer to run solid lines through the inside of the car then braided in the boot around the tank and under the bonnet to
    the carbs.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    I have ordered quite a bit and it always arrives the following day. Service is second to none so far.

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    fuel system questions

    You guys are brilliant! Thanks for all the useful feedback

    Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk

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    Re: fuel system questions

    im looking at a load of fuel flters on ebay, bosch do a couple that look like they will fit my cradle nicely 0450905003 and the other 0450905021
    they look identical and i cant seem to find any information on them, i can only assume they are a different sized 'micron' filter
    Does it matter which one i buy, am i over thinking this

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    Re: fuel system questions

    The 003 seems to be used on higher HP engines, whilst the 021 is sub 2.0L engines (even though a couple are low boost turbos) Unlikely the micron'age is different just their flow rates?

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    A higher flow pump will last much longer than a low flow pump having to work harder.

    They'll only do the work of whatever pressure is asked of them. But a 6-700hp capable pump on a 250hp engine....really isnt needed at all.

    Genuine 044 is ultra reliable though. Probably one of the best pumps ever made.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    A higher flow pump operating lower on its curve will always draw less current.
    current draw is entirely dictated by pressure.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: fuel system questions

    More flow look at any pump curve.....amps drop as pressure increases, current increases as flow increases....pump load! When you talk about pump load it’s more flow at a given pressure than just pressure.
    Last edited by Erikmex; 20-08-2020 at 05:10.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    So higher flow pump operating lower on its flow curve will draw less current, run cooler and last longer than a smaller one working harder. 044 is the most popular on most engines.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    The pumps operate at max flow at all times for whatever voltage is fed into it.

    The only governing factor about flow/work thereafter is the pressure you ask of it.

    There is no "curve" as such in terms of open flow. Flow only changes with pressure, and subsequently so does current.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    More flow look at any pump curve.....amps drop as pressure increases, current increases as flow increases
    Complete and utter nonsense
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Not being funny mate but i work as a Maintenance Superintendent - Mechanical Engineer on an oil processing plant offshore, pumps, flow curves etc are my bread and butter, if you dont undertsand a pressure / flow / amps curve of a pump then please dont state things like 'nonesense'. As pressure drops, flow increases and amps increase - thats the basics of pump load, google it if you like, its pretty basic stuff! In simple terms....if you plug the end of a pump or throttle it - pressure increases, flow reduces as does motor load (a)
    Last edited by Erikmex; 20-08-2020 at 08:09.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    You might want to rethink it.

    Flow drops as pressure increases. Current increases because you ask for higher pressure.

    Test it yourself, although as you say, there is ample evidence already out there.

    Motor load does not increase with reduced pressure, that is nonsense.
    My pumps only pull around 22A at 50psi base at 80psi it's closer to 30A.

    Simple facts.

    Of course flow will also reduce as a consequence of the higher pressure. But it takes more energy to create the higher pressure, and with a fixed supply voltage, the current increases.
    Last edited by stevieturbo; 20-08-2020 at 08:15.
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    Re: fuel system questions

    Nope, amps only increase as flow increases, if you stop a postive displacement pump by thottling it will eventually dead head and stop....when it stops its drawing no current, flow or throughput is load and amps increase with flow throughput. If you like i'll go and load a pump and post a video of an ammeter if you like? it seems you're only thinking pressure and not flow : pressure
    Last edited by Erikmex; 20-08-2020 at 08:17.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    What you're describing makes no sense for electric fuel pumps typically used.

    We have no means of altering the flow of a fuel pump other than either throttling it, or increasing voltage.
    The pumps are essentially fixed flow, constant speed.... because the supply voltage should be stable. It is not usually a variable supply.

    When we apply that throttle restriction...ie the fpr, pressure will increase, as will current. Every test I have done shows this, every graph I've seen online confirms this.

    You are suggesting we have a means of altering flow... strictly speaking we do not. But altering pressure will of course have a knock on effect of reducing flow because we have no means if increasing flow other than increasing voltage ( another reason voltage boosters are so popular in the US )

    That's why say a 340 walbro might support a 700hp n/a worth of of flow motor with a fixed 45psi
    Change that to 90psi fixed and it will support nowhere near 700hp as flow as been massively affected
    It certainly doesn't now support say 1000hp because we've increased pressure.
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    Re: fuel system questions

    Of course we have means of altering flow....injector opening and engine speed / load, as injector opening increases as does fuel flow, so the pump is always oversized to ensure the pressure remains constant as flow increases.
    The flow rate stated for a pump is at a specific pressure, the pump speed is constant yes - but the flow / load changes as demand does. As the flow rate increases as does the current. Any pump will have a max flow at a given pressure but will always follow a flow curve. Its a variable thing.
    As the fuel demand increases...the flow increases, the pump is delivering more liquid.....higher flow / load wich increases current draw.
    Last edited by Erikmex; 20-08-2020 at 10:23.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Fuel flow into the engine has nothing to do with pump output.

    Pump output is the same regardless, and any excess not used by the engine is returned.

    Most do not use a closed loop system where flow is adjusted on demand, although some modern dead head setups do this now.
    Last edited by stevieturbo; 20-08-2020 at 10:33.
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    Re: fuel system questions

    That really depends whether or not you are using a fixed pressure regulator or one with a vac connection, and the pump suction head also changes with fuel level, so maintaing a constant pressure whilst reducing the pump suction head / level alters the work the pump has to do - changing current draw, the suction / supply head is not fixed.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Wtf ?

    We're not sucking from an oil well 10 miles down.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Suction head is suction head regardless of volume, it affects what a pump has to do, principle is the same - for any pump......you dont suck wells btw...they have positive pressure especially ten miles down ;-)
    Stick a meter on a fuel pump and watch current at different engine loads....the way you describe is that nothing changes....and it does. Pump hydraulic physics are the same in any application im afraid.
    If suction head wasnt a factor in a fuel pump - why do you think you need to mount them low?
    Last edited by Erikmex; 20-08-2020 at 15:11.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    You really never have tested this.

    The pump doesn't care one bit about engine load or consumption.

    It does care about what pressure you ask of it.

    The two are not the same
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: fuel system questions

    No shit sherlock.....because pressure relates to flow and flow is load, i have tested and amps most defintately change, so as per above, the higher capacity pump you have....the less it has to work....and the longer it will last..put simply.
    Last edited by Erikmex; 20-08-2020 at 15:30.

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    Re: fuel system questions

    This is batshit crazy.....show me one single graph anywhere showing a fuel pump where flow increases with pressure and current decreases....??

    It doesnt exist !

















    https://walbrofuelpumps.com/fuel-pumps-pressure-charts


    Really...I could go an all day, because every single test available will confirm exactly what I've repeated over and over again.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: fuel system questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Nope, amps only increase as flow increases, if you stop a postive displacement pump by thottling it will eventually dead head and stop....when it stops its drawing no current, flow or throughput is load and amps increase with flow throughput.
    ive never tried it, but i would imagine if you throttle a pump on in its INTAKE then yes current would fall, throttle it on the output side it would go through the roof.

    are we getting a cross purposes here? on an injection system i see no point in having a bigger pump than you need, all you will do is recirculate larger quantities of fuel for no gain

    Current flow through the fuel pump fuse was how AA patrols were taught to diagnose fuel system faults, zero current draw pump/circuit was probably open circuit, very low amp draw no fuel in tank, or fuel pipe had come off somewhere. high current, blocked fuel filter or pump seizing.

    when i ran a big pump on my turbo beemer you could see the current drawn ramp up as boost came in and the pressure regulator throttled the return to increase rail pressure
    Last edited by Graham; 20-08-2020 at 17:15.

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