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Thread: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

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    Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Hope some of the more experienced readers will tune in...

    I have a Mk1 which currently has a Pinto with turbo in it, probably around 160-180 hp. However, that needs to come out and I want a proper engine set up in it.
    Having seen some videos of HPE engined Escorts I really started to like the sound of those engines and the eagerness with which these engines seem to rev. So I got warmed to the idea of getting a Harris build Pinto with around 200 bhp.

    However, there are a couple of characteristics that I find very important and without experiencing the engine myself it is very difficult to judge if that engine will give me what I want.
    Ideally I would like to get the following characteristics:
    - engine that revs very freely and spins up quickly to at least 8,000 rpm
    - engine that pulls stronger as the revs rise and pulls hard till the rev limiter
    - engine with a nice torque curve for overtaking and the real shuff in the back (so low er down the rev range)
    - engine weight as low as possible (I hate a heavy nose and understeer)
    - a gearbox that feels slick and precise

    So up to now I have shifted from HPE Pinto (210-220 bhp) to possibly n/a YB 240-260 bhp). YB will be lighter (?) and give more torque and power, spin up quicker, still not much torque, expensive. On top of that don't like the feel of the T5 gearbox, but 240-260 bhp will probably be okay for the T9 or Mazda 6-speed gearbox.

    Therefore the latest idea is going for a 2.3 or 2.5 Duratec.
    More modern and lighter engine than both Pinto and YB, will work with lighter (?) Mazda 6-speed, easily tuned to 240-260 bhp but more torque than YB, very reliable engine.

    Am I correct in my assumptions or thinking in the wrong direction? Which would be the best engine choice for what I am looking for?
    Hope some of you with experience will tune in.

    Thanks in advance.

    John
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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Forgot to mention, I am used to seriously quick cars which is why I am not easily satisfied.
    Also have a nice BMW E30 with 6 cilinder E46 M3 engine (S54) with 340 bhp in 1150 kilo, but that doesn't feel that quick.
    Car has 6-speed from E46 M3 and 3.73 LSD, although already have a 4,45 LSD lying around for more acceleration.

    Acceleration 0-125 mph in 15 seconds.

    John

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    I have a Mk2 weighing just over 870kgs with a 202hp Pinto, 4.44 diff straight cut box that eats E46 M3's for breakfast on track. an NA cossie will rev in much the same way as similarly tuned Pinto, weight is much the same but it will produce more power, Duratec will be much lighter being an alloy block, You''ll also be best fitting an Atlas axle for the sort of power you're looking at, as well as arching your car for wider rubber.

    Personally i prefer the Vaux Redtop to a Duratec, i think theyre a stronger engine, however, theyre not as easy to pick up as Duratecs these days, a 2.3 or 2.5 Duratec seems the way to go, but when you factor in a 260hp engine build, axle, arching car etc...it wont be cheap.

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Have you considered a Honda S2000, inc. gearbox - screamer / power / torque'ish / reliability / relatively cheap?

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    Have you considered a Honda S2000, inc. gearbox - screamer / power / torque'ish / reliability / relatively cheap?
    They seem very popular in the states being turbo'd to the hilt. 500bhp seems relatively easy on standard internals with a turbo (sorry too much lock down youtube) look up speed academy or boostedboiz (i think on you tube) they are passing 1000bhp (in you tube world anyway)
    Last edited by wildo105e; 13-08-2020 at 16:27.

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    I have a Mk2 weighing just over 870kgs with a 202hp Pinto, 4.44 diff straight cut box that eats E46 M3's for breakfast on track.

    Funny as the power to weight seems to be nearly equal. But of course you can brake much later and carry more speed through the corners. Weight is the big enemy, I Always say anything above 1,000 kgs is too heavy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    an NA cossie will rev in much the same way as similarly tuned Pinto, weight is much the same but it will produce more power, Duratec will be much lighter being an alloy block, You''ll also be best fitting an Atlas axle for the sort of power you're looking at, as well as arching your car for wider rubber.
    Never realised the YB is the same weight as Pinto, thought the head might be light weight. Will the YB also produce more torque or only power? I think I read somewhere the Pinto has bigger valves and therefore produce good torque.

    Does anyone know the different weights of the Pinto - YB - 2.3/2.5 Duratec?
    Expect the Duratec to have more torque due to larger capacity?!?

    Fortunately, I already have two small Atlas axles lying around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Personally i prefer the Vaux Redtop to a Duratec, i think theyre a stronger engine, however, theyre not as easy to pick up as Duratecs these days, a 2.3 or 2.5 Duratec seems the way to go, but when you factor in a 260hp engine build, axle, arching car etc...it wont be cheap.


    Not sure about the Redtop, like to keep it in the Ford family.

    Thanks for your reply!

    John

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    Have you considered a Honda S2000, inc. gearbox - screamer / power / torque'ish / reliability / relatively cheap?
    Been in a Mk2 with this engine, but doesn't feel quick enough. And like to keep it Ford related.

    John

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Gearing also has a lot to do with it rather than just power to weight, my car is geared for 120mph flat out in 5th, it accelerates far harder than an M3 with similar power to weight ratio. There’s a video of me chasing a new turbo 911 Carrera 2S around Knockhill circuit, it lost me on the straights but through the corners and on the brakes I was on its ass lap after lap. It’s on the Pinto group page on Facebook

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by m3dtm View Post
    Been in a Mk2 with this engine, but doesn't feel quick enough. And like to keep it Ford related.

    John
    I think you'll remain unsatisfied then!

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by m3dtm View Post
    Been in a Mk2 with this engine, but doesn't feel quick enough. And like to keep it Ford related.

    John
    Me too, i dont like the torque they produce, its all top end where they come alive, a good 2.5 Duratec or Redtop feels a much quicker engine in an Escort. A good friend of mine has a 260Hp one on Jenveys in his rally car...its quick but doesnt pull as well as say a good spec 2.3 Redtop.
    Last edited by Erikmex; 13-08-2020 at 19:11.

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    If I were you I would steer well clear of the NA Cosworth engine, we have had most permutations of those engines from 2.0 to 2.3 over the last 30 years, the best part of the engine's the cam cover. You would need to spend a minimum of 6k to get an engine with approx 220 bhp and you won't even have the torque and drivability of a decent 180bhp Pinto.

    Why don't you have serious look at the 2.3 0r 2.5 Duratec, Pistons, Rods and some mild cams is basically all you need along with the injection and management system. The cylinder head needs no modifications apart from uprated valve springs. It's all the other parts for the installasion that puts the price up for this coversion.

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Gearing also has a lot to do with it rather than just power to weight, my car is geared for 120mph flat out in 5th, it accelerates far harder than an M3 with similar power to weight ratio. There’s a video of me chasing a new turbo 911 Carrera 2S around Knockhill circuit, it lost me on the straights but through the corners and on the brakes I was on its ass lap after lap. It’s on the Pinto group page on Facebook
    For sure, that's also why I am changing the diff on my E30 with the S54 engine. What's the point of being able to do 170 mph, it's acceleration I want and 150 mph is more than enough.

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    I think you'll remain unsatisfied then!
    I hope not… I am positive that I will end up with a fast accelerating Mk1 considering the weight (max 800 kgs?), power/torque and diff ratio.

    But I am also looking for a car that can easily be enjoyed 'on the limit'. Thing with modern sports cars is the limit is so high, if you really want to enjoy driving it (play with it), you need to go super quick with the limits being so high. This will leave you less time to react and when things go wrong, they go terribly wrong. I think we should go back to less weight, a little less grip and just being able to enjoy our cars more.

    John

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Me too, i dont like the torque they produce, its all top end where they come alive, a good 2.5 Duratec or Redtop feels a much quicker engine in an Escort. A good friend of mine has a 260Hp one on Jenveys in his rally car...its quick but doesnt pull as well as say a good spec 2.3 Redtop.
    Good to hear, apart from the Redtop bit. Are they really that good (and light)?

    Will a well build Duratec 2.4 rev as eagerly as a Harris Pinto?

    John

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    No they’re not that light, but they’re very strong and easy to tune. Any well built engine will rev as well as a Harris Pinto, don’t get hung up on them, the guy who dyno’s my rally engines says Harris pintos make the worst rally engines, it’s all peaky high up stuff.

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    You would need to spend a minimum of 6k to get an engine with approx 220 bhp and you won't even have the torque and drivability of a decent 180bhp Pinto.
    I thought I had read someting similar, but couldn't find it again. So HPE Pinto is not a bad alternative for an YB. Unfortunately, I don't have Millington money for an engine, so that one is out of the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    Why don't you have serious look at the 2.3 0r 2.5 Duratec, Pistons, Rods and some mild cams is basically all you need along with the injection and management system. The cylinder head needs no modifications apart from uprated valve springs. It's all the other parts for the installasion that puts the price up for this coversion.
    That's why I started this thread, hoping to find out which is the best option for the kind of engine characteristic I am looking for. At first I only looked at a HPE Pinto or a n/a YB, but now I am also seriously looking at a Duratec. And if I understand it correctly, I should go for a 2.4 Duratec as the best compromise between the two (2.3 and 2.5).

    Any recommendations for Duratec specialist? I read something about Paul Gardner Engines and SBD Motorsport.

    John

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    I'd definitely go with Duratec (in fact, i am, in my grp4 mk2).

    The 2.0 will rev to 9000 (and will make 280+ bhp), the crank should be ok but you'd want forged rods/pistons.

    2.4 is supposed to be amazing, certainly will rev quicker than the 2.5 and have a lot more area under the curve so will feel faster everywhere. They can make well over 300bhp NA but it's going to cost you!

    If it's simple grunt you want but still light weight I suspect a supercharged Duratec 2.0 might fit the bill?

    Occasionally you get ex caterham 2.0 duratecs for sale on ebay, there was one on recently dynoed at about 260bhp, complete for £8k which was pretty good value. Cosworth roller barrel, dry sump etc.

    As has been said, it's everything else that makes a duratec conversion expensive. What gearebox are you going to use? Mazda 6 spd is the obvious choice i suppose.

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    If I were you I would steer well clear of the NA Cosworth engine, we have had most permutations of those engines from 2.0 to 2.3 over the last 30 years, the best part of the engine's the cam cover. You would need to spend a minimum of 6k to get an engine with approx 220 bhp and you won't even have the torque and drivability of a decent 180bhp Pinto.

    Why don't you have serious look at the 2.3 0r 2.5 Duratec, Pistons, Rods and some mild cams is basically all you need along with the injection and management system. The cylinder head needs no modifications apart from uprated valve springs. It's all the other parts for the installasion that puts the price up for this coversion.
    hammer and nail comes to mind with that post,i would also add pinto boat anchors into that compared with whats available nowadays

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    If you can, but if you want to race in alot of classes, a Pinto or NA Cossie is the only option.

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by m3dtm View Post
    I thought I had read someting similar, but couldn't find it again. So HPE Pinto is not a bad alternative for an YB. Unfortunately, I don't have Millington money for an engine, so that one is out of the question.



    That's why I started this thread, hoping to find out which is the best option for the kind of engine characteristic I am looking for. At first I only looked at a HPE Pinto or a n/a YB, but now I am also seriously looking at a Duratec. And if I understand it correctly, I should go for a 2.4 Duratec as the best compromise between the two (2.3 and 2.5).

    Any recommendations for Duratec specialist? I read something about Paul Gardner Engines and SBD Motorsport.

    John
    Give Paul Gardner a call and have a chat with him and he'll explain everything about the Duratec, also his Dyno is accurate and doesn't give over inflated figures unlike some engine tuners.

    A 2.4 Duratec is part 2,3, (the crank) and 2.5 ( block,pistons and rods)

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    No they’re not that light, but they’re very strong and easy to tune. Any well built engine will rev as well as a Harris Pinto, don’t get hung up on them, the guy who dyno’s my rally engines says Harris pintos make the worst rally engines, it’s all peaky high up stuff.
    Most of the Harris engines finish up in cars on the drag strip.

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Teuchter View Post
    What gearebox are you going to use? Mazda 6 spd is the obvious choice i suppose.

    For now I am thinking of the Mazda 6-speed as the best option. Good ratios and still possible to drive on the motorway as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    If you can, but if you want to race in alot of classes, a Pinto or NA Cossie is the only option.
    No classes/rules, just for fun. Fast road/track car.

    John
    Last edited by m3dtm; 17-08-2020 at 19:02.

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Originally Posted by Forest_rallying
    If I were you I would steer well clear of the NA Cosworth engine, we have had most permutations of those engines from 2.0 to 2.3 over the last 30 years, the best part of the engine's the cam cover. You would need to spend a minimum of 6k to get an engine with approx 220 bhp and you won't even have the torque and drivability of a decent 180bhp Pinto.

    Why don't you have serious look at the 2.3 0r 2.5 Duratec, Pistons, Rods and some mild cams is basically all you need along with the injection and management system. The cylinder head needs no modifications apart from uprated valve springs. It's all the other parts for the installasion that puts the price up for this coversion.


    Quote Originally Posted by turbospud View Post
    hammer and nail comes to mind with that post,i would also add pinto boat anchors into that compared with whats available nowadays

    Does anyone know the different weights of the engines, Pinto vs n/a YB vs 2.3/2.4 Duratec?


    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    Give Paul Gardner a call and have a chat with him and he'll explain everything about the Duratec, also his Dyno is accurate and doesn't give over inflated figures unlike some engine tuners.

    A 2.4 Duratec is part 2,3, (the crank) and 2.5 ( block,pistons and rods)

    Tried to find Paul Gardner on internet, but he doesn't seem to have a website. Only found him on Facebook and sent him a message, but not sure if he will reply.
    So if someone could supply me details of Paul Gardner, I would be grateful.


    John
    Last edited by m3dtm; 17-08-2020 at 19:00.

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Quote Originally Posted by m3dtm View Post
    Originally Posted by Forest_rallying
    If I were you I would steer well clear of the NA Cosworth engine, we have had most permutations of those engines from 2.0 to 2.3 over the last 30 years, the best part of the engine's the cam cover. You would need to spend a minimum of 6k to get an engine with approx 220 bhp and you won't even have the torque and drivability of a decent 180bhp Pinto.

    Why don't you have serious look at the 2.3 0r 2.5 Duratec, Pistons, Rods and some mild cams is basically all you need along with the injection and management system. The cylinder head needs no modifications apart from uprated valve springs. It's all the other parts for the installasion that puts the price up for this coversion.





    Does anyone know the different weights of the engines, Pinto vs n/a YB vs 2.3/2.4 Duratec?





    Tried to find Paul Gardner on internet, but he doesn't seem to have a website. Only found him on Facebook and sent him a message, but not sure if he will reply.
    So if someone could supply me details of Paul Gardner, I would be grateful.


    John
    The last contact number I had for PG is 01524 791507. I havent had any work done by him for a number of years so I can't help you with anymore info, sorry.

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    Gave this a lot of thought and think I will go the Duratec route.
    I like the light weight engine compared to the Pinto and even the YB.
    Power and torque will (hopefully) be good enough in a light and well balanced car, so I must end up with a car that is a lot of fun to drive and play with.

    So next will be to work out gearbox (MX5 Mk3?) and propshaft (one piece carbon from RX8?) and think hard about the suspension.
    Have a new full 6-link lying around to make sure the rear axle stays in the same location, but also need to think about the front of the car.

    Also bought new bubble arches a couple of years ago, but maybe my preferences have changed over the years, as I like the clean, small and lowered look now maybe even more.
    Wouldn't call it the London look, as I do like 15 inch Minilites with the right size tyres.

    John

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    Re: Engine choice for Escort Mk1 build Pinto - n/a YB - Duratec asking for advice

    option 3, stick a cam in the pinto, with a decent sized turbo and you can have all the power and torque you want with an engine that revs!

    what ever you do NA you are never going to have a lot of torque unless you fit a V8

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