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Thread: Vulcan pinto injection race head

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    Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Hi all has anyone got flow figures of a Vulcan stage 4 injection head please cheers mario.😀

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    I don't have any CFM numbers but I can tell you the one I had where all making between 191 and 193 Bhp on a 2Ltr bottom end on my dyno. HT1e cam and 45 DCOE.

    In theory it should mean they are round 190 CFM
    Last edited by Dyno; 09-12-2020 at 17:26.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Hi onyd my heads flowing 190 cfm also is the ht1e cam 260 deg at .050 lift cheers mario

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    It should be enough to make 190 Bhp+

    The funny thing is, I've installed the same head on a 2,3Ltr and was making 210 Bhp. The engine failed because they forgotten to put oil in it. I've rebuild the short block buit meanwhile the head had to service an other 2ltr and was sold. I could not get a Vulcan head in time and found a CNC-head, started from carb version Pinto, 44,4 x 38 mm valves in it. No idea what it should flow but it did made 216 Bhp on my dyno !!!!!

    I know CFM figures and flow testing is very important but we had the same with Beetle engine in the past. Going back to smaller valves and finally finding more Bhp. Bhp Is a balance between air flow, air speed and a lot off things we will probably never understand

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Hi dirk the cnc pinto head that made 216 hp is that with 45mm webers with 38mm chokes cheers mario

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    I've tested both 45 DCOE 38mm and 48 up to 42mm choke and is about the same but it left with 48 DCO because these where the customers carburetors. I felt it was more crispy with 45 DCOE.

    I hd the same result in the past on VW T4 engines. Round 200 Bhp I was able to make exact the same torque line with 44 as with 48 IDF. But the 44 IDF felt like more aggressive if you touched the throttle. It felt like the reaction was faster. I can't measure this. During a slow "run" there was no differences at all on the screen (usual there is when you got different diameters but here is was not)

    The 210 Bhp engine was also tested with 50 DCO (I had this set in from a 2400 cc S2000 I was building) and gave same top power but adjusting the carburetor at lower RPM's became difficult.

    The same 2400 cc S2000 got fuel injection after the carb test and lost 5 Bhp on top at the very highest RMP numbers (8000 for this engine). But is was more useful on the road because I had difficulties getting the V-tec switch right. Normally the switch is round 6600 RPM but because the engine is so much bigger I had to switch already at 3000 RPM. At this point the carb could not understand the 2 different engines at one time. I needed faster cams so the switch was much higher but it surprised me so I did not had other cams.

    Once over 240 you are round max for a 45 DCOE and this kind of RPM's.

    Please note, my 45 DCOE are NOT standard Weber carburetors. They are all modified where needed. The fuel system is changed as are some other parts in the carburetor. No more information given.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post


    Please note, my 45 DCOE are NOT standard Weber carburetors. They are all modified where needed. The fuel system is changed as are some other parts in the carburetor. No more information given.

    Good, theres a limit as to how much information you can give away.

    unfortunately nothing is free, the information you learn costs a lot of time and money to get, you can only give so much away free.

    its not up and working yet, but so far my Dyno owes me £20,000 and 100's of hours, it will need to earn its keep!

    i let odd bits of info ive learnt flow testing out, but again it cost me a lot to buy a flowbench..................
    Last edited by Graham; 13-12-2020 at 15:01.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    That's correct. It takes so much time (and time is indeed money) to develop parts or test working option. But it is so damn cheap and easy to copy

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Hi onyd is that cnc head from cnc heads uk cheers Mario.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Hi onyd is that cnc head from cnc heads uk cheers Mario.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    The U.K. Cnc pinto heads flow 210 cfm at .500 lift makes scent that you made 216 hp with one 190 cfm won't do 216 hp I will do more work on my cylinder head as I'm at 190 cfm cheers mario.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    i assume your numbers are at 28" depression, your current head should be able to top 200bhp assuming everything else is good enough

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Quote Originally Posted by mariors2000 View Post
    The U.K. Cnc pinto heads flow 210 cfm at .500 lift makes scent that you made 216 hp with one 190 cfm won't do 216 hp I will do more work on my cylinder head as I'm at 190 cfm cheers mario.
    That's correct but a 190 CFM fitted to a 2,3 ltr gives you a different number. On a 2 ltr short block I had 193 Bhp.

    I don't think my CNC-head has 210 CFM. It's build from a carburetor version head and got 44,4 x 38 valves. Did anyone already measured 210 CFM on a Pinto head? Sounds a lot to me and my next question is always, does it make more power because CFM numbers are not the only factor to make power

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    . Did anyone already measured 210 CFM on a Pinto head? Sounds a lot to me and my next question is always, does it make more power because CFM numbers are not the only factor to make power
    assuming your talking 28" then thats 125cfm @10 which the best heads will do.
    Dirk you are quite correct more flow does not give more power, i changed the head on a 2.3 engine, cant remember the numbers but we picked up about 15-20cfm, peak power was exactly the same, but at 1000rpm lower, this is because torque had gone up and moved down the rev range. unfortunately the head wasn't the only change we changed the exhaust manifold too so we cant be sure what did what, but what i will say is the manifold was a proven design, and the head flowed more but power still wasnt up. i need to understand more whats going on, which is why i am installing my own dyno and need to fix my flowbench.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    A flow bench in combination with a dyno is THE ultimate setup.

    It is sometimes so difficult to tell what will make power and what does no. Last week I had a Beetle engine on the dyno. 44 IDF where I prefer 40 but carbs where on when it came in. I decreased the 36mm choke to 34 and gained power low down. Well, from now on I could floor the throttle at 1500 RPM, before dead under 2500. I decreased to 32mm, hoping to find even more low down torque. Low down torque did not changed at all but top end power was 3 Bhp up!!!! When I went from 36 to 34 nothing happened on top. So why does it make more power?? We can spend a whole day trying to find a theory and we will hahahaha) but nothing will be correct

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Yes the uk head from cnc uk are a non injection head and has 45.5 mm inlet valves and it flow 126.5 cfm at .500 inch lift and 38mm exhaust valve cheers mario.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    So why does it make more power?? We can spend a whole day trying to find a theory and we will hahahaha) but nothing will be correct
    At a guess - gas speed? Same theory along the lines of port cross sectional area - overly large and power evaporates pretty much everywhere - fill the ports with epoxy, air speed increases, shape to improve swirl / cylinder filling and power climbs. That's my thoughts anyway!

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Hi Katana, this theory is also y thinking and the reason why I believe in small ports and valves (not only believe). But here we are talking about the choke only, the rest of the inlet track is the same.

    I've dyno tested almost 800 engine, many I've reduced the chokes from until I had the best balance between torque an max power. I've never ever seen this before. Usual you come to a point top end power drops and that where you turn one step back and leave it. Just as described in the better tuning books

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Onyd you mite find that the port runner in the vw bettle engine has 32 mm hole that's why you ended up with 32mm chokes in carbys cheers mario.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    I don't think it has anything to do with is but it is a theory as any others and as I say, we always try to link it to a theory because we just don't know why it happens.

    Normally these engines run 40 IDF, not 44 and best overal choke for this engine is 30mm

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    engines are complex, its not always airflow related. A series mini engines always gave more power on weber dcoe than identically sized/choked dellorto dhla, dellortos produced smaller fuel droplets which on most engines is an improvement but not on the A series.

    its entirely possible that that particular choke size hit a sweet spot, just in the same way i once gained 12bhp using 8 fuel injectors, that had nothing to do with airflow or AFR
    Last edited by Graham; 01-01-2021 at 09:54.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    The engine in my car's got a GTS4 cam and twin 45's that are on 36mm chokes. The car hasn't been driven up the road yet as it's not quite road legal but as soon has it is then I'll report on how it drives and then possibly a Rolling Road session.

    The next project's then to get the ex Memphis down draught head finished off that's built on a 1600GT casting. It's either going to have a BF63 or WR40 cam fitted, I can't make my mind up as to which one yet. The reason I intend to use one of the two cams is that I already have them in stock from previous engines I ran in the 80's. Carbs again will be 45 Webers which are fitted with 38mm chokes.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Quote Originally Posted by mariors2000 View Post
    Yes the uk head from cnc uk are a non injection head and has 45.5 mm inlet valves and it flow 126.5 cfm at .500 inch lift and 38mm exhaust valve cheers mario.
    I don't know if it's me just being thick but I can't find the information and photo's of the RW CNC heads that there once was on the Net. I was always under the impression that their heads were fitted with 44mm Group one valves.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    I don't know if it's me just being thick but I can't find the information and photo's of the RW CNC heads that there once was on the Net. I was always under the impression that their heads were fitted with 44mm Group one valves.
    perhaps its deliberate, one thing i always noticed is despite showing lots of pictures of the heads they never show pictures of the important bits

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    perhaps its deliberate, one thing i always noticed is despite showing lots of pictures of the heads they never show pictures of the important bits
    I don't blame a buisness for not wanting to give all their Trade secrets away when you think about the time and money it costs to develop things. There was someone on here a few years ago that was offering a hand ported copy of a Duratec head which was one of Rick Woods .

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    I don't know if it's me just being thick but I can't find the information and photo's of the RW CNC heads that there once was on the Net. I was always under the impression that their heads were fitted with 44mm Group one valves.
    The head on my 2300 Pinto has 44,4 x 38,1mm valves, CNC head and making 216 Bhp.

    I've seen Beetle engine with 44 inlet valves and 2300 cc making 120 - 125 Bhp (reasonable serious ported) and 1835 cc engine, standard 39mm valves (late type heads, early all have 35mm as standard) and light ported making 115 - 117 Bhp average. Meanwhile I'm sure the max valve for these Beetles is somewhere between 40 and 42mm. No prove it will be shorter agains 40 than 42 but a friend of mine, tuning Beetles for about his whole live told me he never felt any difference between 40 and 42mm but did told me 44mm is making you car less fast.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    I have a copy of that sheet it's got all flow figures on inlet and exhaust ports and size of ports and valve sizes and throat size I'm doing a head up now I got exhaust port flow the same as the cnc head only my inlet port needs more work as I'm still 20 cfm off cnc head but I've got a 44.4 inlet valve as cnc use a 45.5 inlet valve will a 1mm bigger valve give me 20cfm more cheers mario.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    As I told you, mine had 44,4 mm, not 45,5 mm but i did had a 45,5 mm head from them in the past. Not sure but I think it had 39mm exhaust but could have been 38mm.

    What I do remember is the valves of in and exhaust where touching each other and I believe I removed 0,25mm from inlet and exhaust valve diameter.

    This head had an A8 camshaft, came ready to go from CNC heads but did NOT made 190 Bhp. The Vulcan head, round same time of testing did made over 190 Bhp with the A8 and later I've tested the same head and made almost 190 Bhp with RL31 so it was not the camshaft holding the CNC head away from 190 Bhp.

    I did not tested the last CNC head on a 2 Ltr engine but I just received complete Pinto engine (carb version) and will turn it into a 2 ltr rally engine. Will have the head machined at CNC again and fit with my new design camshaft. I'm hoping to get 195 Bhp this time (well hoping at 200 but I'm realistic).
    Last edited by Dyno; 01-01-2021 at 13:30.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    I don't blame a buisness for not wanting to give all their Trade secrets away when you think about the time and money it costs to develop things .
    spot on

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Hi onyd were the inlet port shapes different between the cnc head and Vulcan head in the short turn areas cheers mario.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Quote Originally Posted by mariors2000 View Post
    I have a copy of that sheet it's got all flow figures on inlet and exhaust ports and size of ports and valve sizes and throat size I'm doing a head up now I got exhaust port flow the same as the cnc head only my inlet port needs more work as I'm still 20 cfm off cnc head but I've got a 44.4 inlet valve as cnc use a 45.5 inlet valve will a 1mm bigger valve give me 20cfm more cheers mario.
    a 1mm bigger valve will not give you an extra 20cfm, UNLESS that extra 1 mm allows you to make a radical flow improving change somewhere else.

    dave walker once told me i managed to make a pinto head with a 2inch so 52mm inlet valve, it flowed 140cfm@10" which was 15cfm up on his normal heads, it made EXACTLY the same power! ive done the similar with a vw ABF engine given it more airflow and got slightly less power

    you can measure everything possible and do spread sheets until the cows come home but there are always other factors at work, most of which dont fit an excel sheet.
    Last edited by Graham; 01-01-2021 at 13:49.

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Same as how I think about it. I got a lot of customers telling me, you may tune my carburetors set but only if we can stand next to you on the dyno. OK, thanks for the offer and goodbye !!!!!!!

    At a regular base company's want to hire me for one day to setup a set of twin Weber carburetors while their staff is watching and I explain how to do it. As a compensation they are willing to buy all the equipment needed from me. ALL the equipment ???? A screw driver and a Weber synchro meter of 50£ ??? WHOW, that's worth it !!!!!!!

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    Re: Vulcan pinto injection race head

    Quote Originally Posted by mariors2000 View Post
    Hi onyd were the inlet port shapes different between the cnc head and Vulcan head in the short turn areas cheers mario.
    To be honest, the last CNC head did had a short turn at all. It was build up so there was not even room for a 60° angle, the 45° seat was straight into the inlet port (underside). I'm questioning myself, do we need a short turn??? My feeling is, the Pinto does not flow at all on this side of the port (compared with other heads). I think the focus should lay on the other side of the port and also not "round" the valve but over the valve. But this is my theory. Once the air enters the cylinders, there is more happening as only flow and I feel it's best to have as much air on the other side, not on the short turn where it can do anything anyway (my theory again).

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