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Thread: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    On removing gearbox I noticed the tailshaft housing was cracked. It already cracked before and I had it welded up so this time I dropped it off with James Harris to replace the housing and just give the entire box a quick once over because 3rd gear seems noisier than others.

    That's where the bad news started!

    This is a Tranx gearset and I'm not sure what parts availability is now, but parts are definitely required!


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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    I take it that's corrosion rather than wear?

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by rallyrob View Post
    I take it that's corrosion rather than wear?
    No, it is actually wear where its gone through the hardening.

    I bought this gearset 2nd hand from a rallying firm in 1996 for 600 delivered, so it has done reasonably well. I used to do a lot of long road journeys with this box, and was probably using standard EP80 as I didn't know what oil was recommended.

    Turns out it isn't a Tranx gearset (that's what I bought it as), but a Quaife Pro Heavy Duty gearset.

    The ultimatum is 1400 to replace everything showing wear including all bearings and needle rollers to give me what will essentially be a brand new box, or scrap it.

    At the moment I'm edging towards getting the work done on the basis it's better the devil you know.


    For reference, I believe Quaife's recommended oil for this gearset is: Fuchs Titan Race SYN 5 75W-90 Fully Synthetic Gear Oil

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by rallyrob View Post
    I take it that's corrosion rather than wear?
    Its not corrosion, I believe its called 'fretting'? Basically the wear has penetrated the case hardening and the metal flakes away. Replacement is only solution - but that is pretty severe, maybe worth a call to the makers questioning their hardening of this part and warranty claim / discount? Some good info here - https://khkgears.net/new/gear_knowle..._to_gears.html

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    Its not corrosion, I believe its called 'fretting'? Basically the wear has penetrated the case hardening and the metal flakes away. Replacement is only solution - but that is pretty severe, maybe worth a call to the makers questioning their hardening of this part and warranty claim / discount? Some good info here - https://khkgears.net/new/gear_knowle..._to_gears.html
    I was told Quaife's hardening isn't known for longevity, but serves its intended purpose.

    25 years of sideways road use and motorway journeys is probably not warranted use.

    Quaife has lost interest in this side of the business now since their focus is on mass produced ATBs for major car manufacturers, therefore replacement parts for these old gear-sets are either difficult to obtain or expensive. Motorsport Tools are selling a version of my gearbox for near on 3000, so all things considered the repair option isn't too far fetched.

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Sorry I thought it was a relatively 'young' box - after a quarter century of hooning around i'm not surprised its worn out! LOL

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I was told Quaife's hardening isn't known for longevity, but serves its intended purpose.

    25 years of sideways road use and motorway journeys is probably not warranted use.

    Quaife has lost interest in this side of the business now since their focus is on mass produced ATBs for major car manufacturers, therefore replacement parts for these old gear-sets are either difficult to obtain or expensive. Motorsport Tools are selling a version of my gearbox for near on 3000, so all things considered the repair option isn't too far fetched.
    Have you tried 3J or Tracsport for a replacement gear kit and Bollocks to Quaife with their lack of customer care.

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I bought this gearset 2nd hand from a rallying firm in 1996 for 600 delivered

    Sounds a bit like mine, in age at least anyway.

    I bought my box, a TranX Type 9 off the guy that put the gear kit in it in about 1990, he never used it after he built it. The gear kit itself he bought in about 1987. I know it's probably not even done 3 or 400 miles.
    Last edited by rallyrob; 16-02-2021 at 22:21.

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    Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    Have you tried 3J or Tracsport for a replacement gear kit and Bollocks to Quaife with their lack of customer care.
    I did have a look to get an idea of prices which were coming out cheaper overall for parts, but haven't pursued because I'd need to buy a new casing since Quaife say the internal casing is modified for the "pro" gear set that I have.

    I don't know to what extent the casing is modified but HPE looked at replacing with a clubman gear set they had lying around but it wouldn't fit.

    So by the time I've bought a new casing (another standard used box), new 3J gear set, and paid labour, it'll probably stand me in more money.



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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    I remember the casing had to be ground out to fit the larger 2.01 first gear, I wasn't aware there were other mods that were required, but it doesn't surprise me if Quaife have made alterations so you have to buy their expensive alloy casing.

    At least if you went the whole hog and bought a brand new gearbox you should have total reliability and not one that could still have worn parts in that could fail in the short term.

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    I remember the casing had to be ground out to fit the larger 2.01 first gear, I wasn't aware there were other mods that were required, but it doesn't surprise me if Quaife have made alterations so you have to buy their expensive alloy casing.

    At least if you went the whole hog and bought a brand new gearbox you should have total reliability and not one that could still have worn parts in that could fail in the short term.
    It is tempting to up the budget for a new box, but the 1400 to overhaul this current box replaces everything that is showing wear and should make the box like new. However we are still on the hunt for 1 remaining part, a specific type of needle roller bearing where as I understand (or misunderstand!) it the needles are split lengthways.

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    While all the messing about with the gearbox has been going on I've been sorting the diff out.

    Sticking with a Quaife ATB which has been going strong for many years and is still mint, as are the C/W and Pinion, so all it really needed was a new pinion seal, a clean up and some paint.

    Will start re-assembling the rear end and get it back on the car in the next few days as I have a watts linkage to fit when the shell goes in for fabrication and paint.








    Last edited by RS2OOO; 18-02-2021 at 00:51.

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Rear axle now assembled.

    A concours finish isn't the aim, just needs to be clean, rust protected and within the limits of what I can do at home with hand tools.

    So this:








    Now looks like this:





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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Looks good enough to me.

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Took the Cylinder head off to get it converted to unleaded.

    Not yet spotted anything terrible, possibly a guide leaking oil but no major cracks or wear that I could identify.

    As for the valve sizes, exhausts came out at 36.21mm (standard I guess, plus a bit of carbon), inlets at 47.66mm (1.876") (again, possibly a bit smaller accounting for carbon build up). Camshaft is a HT1.

    I will need to be careful choosing a new head gasket. Valves protrude quite a bit at TDC and pistons are maximum of 0.5mm down the bore if not less. They would definitely touch without the thickness of the head gasket. The gasket fitted looks like a Felpro.





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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Why did you go to the bother of putting what is effectively a near full race cam in what seems like a otherwise standard head
    originally then?

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by rallyrob View Post
    Why did you go to the bother of putting what is effectively a near full race cam in what seems like a otherwise standard head
    originally then?
    not quite, the exhaust valve is standard because the inlet is so big,

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Took the Cylinder head off to get it converted to unleaded.

    Not yet spotted anything terrible, possibly a guide leaking oil but no major cracks or wear that I could identify.

    As for the valve sizes, exhausts came out at 36.21mm (standard I guess, plus a bit of carbon), inlets at 47.66mm (1.876") (again, possibly a bit smaller accounting for carbon build up). Camshaft is a HT1.

    I will need to be careful choosing a new head gasket. Valves protrude quite a bit at TDC and pistons are maximum of 0.5mm down the bore if not less. They would definitely touch without the thickness of the head gasket. The gasket fitted looks like a Felpro.




    from the look of it you dont have room for exhaust inserts.

    and a felpro gasket is only 1 mm thick, almost any other gasket you use will be thicker
    Last edited by Graham; 22-02-2021 at 17:50.

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    Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    not quite, the exhaust valve is standard because the inlet is so big,
    Exactly that.

    It was built a long time ago now so I don't recollect all the details.

    The head was an experimental head by Roland Hayes for some sort of testing on a 2.2 bottom end. These were the very early days of 2.2 and the cam one of the earliest with Kent Cams branding. Roland told me its got Citroen DS inlet valves, but I can't find DS valves online matching the exact size I measured so can't be certain.

    Can only assume it didn't give Roland what he was looking for because he sold it to me for 300 (which included his sausage finger dizzy vacuum mod thrown in) !

    Ron Harris put the head on one of his lightened/balanced bottom ends with AE (Nural?) +1.5mm pistons. Crown at TDC looks to be max 0.5mm below the deck. I don't remember how that compares to standard.





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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Exactly that.

    It was built a long time ago now so I don't recollect all the details.

    The head was an experimental head by Roland Hayes for some sort of testing on a 2.2 bottom end. These were the very early days of 2.2 and the cam one of the earliest with Kent Cams branding. Roland told me its got Citroen DS inlet valves, but I can't find DS valves online matching the exact size I measured so can't be certain.

    Can only assume it didn't give Roland what he was looking for because he sold it to me for 300 (which included his sausage finger dizzy vacuum mod thrown in) !

    Ron Harris put the head on one of his lightened/balanced bottom ends with AE (Nural?) +1.5mm pistons. Crown at TDC looks to be max 0.5mm below the deck. I don't remember how that compares to standard.





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    as standard pinto pistons are around .5mm down bore, early engines seem to be a touch more

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    Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    from the look of it you dont have room for exhaust inserts.

    and a felpro gasket is only 1 mm thick, almost any other gasket you use will be thicker
    Thanks Graham, I do appreciate your input.

    Vulcan seemed to think they could do it on the phone, taking it to them tomorrow.

    Gasket does look like a Felpro, I'll take that to Vulcan as well and see if they can confirm and will put a photo up when next on computer.

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    Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Found a barely legible number on my head gasket, 8361 followed by 2 indistinguishable letters.
    Googling that number brought up a Fel Pro 8361PT head gasket. The internet isn't all bad!

    Still, not exactly a perfect fit as its for an OE bore size so I may look for an alternative of the same thickness for 92.5mm bore size.



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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    not quite, the exhaust valve is standard because the inlet is so big,
    Okay, I must admit I did think to myself the inlets were large, maybe I should've kept quiet.


    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Vulcan seemed to think they could do it on the phone, taking it to them tomorrow.
    Funny because when I gave Steve Curzon my big valve pinto head nearly 15yrs ago just give it a clean up skim I asked him about doing valve seat inserts then. He said he prefered not to touch unknown big valve heads for fear of breaking through to the water jacket thus leaving a scrap head.

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    Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by rallyrob View Post



    Funny because when I gave Steve Curzon my big valve pinto head nearly 15yrs ago just give it a clean up skim I asked him about doing valve seat inserts then. He said he prefered not to touch unknown big valve heads for fear of breaking through to the water jacket thus leaving a scrap head.
    Well, Roland himself told me it couldn't be converted to unleaded after he built it, but I enquired as maybe there's been advances in
    machining that would now make it possible. I put this to Steve himself when I first phoned and he seemed reasonably confident.

    Will be a little disappointed if they turn round and say no it can't as I wouldn't have stripped it otherwise and it will then cost me gaskets, head bolts etc to put it back together.

    What did you do with your head in the end?

    I've seen a few posts on here of people convinced there's no need to convert Pintos as they've never encountered one suffering from VSR.

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    What did you do with your head in the end?
    I left my head as it was in the end. It's never actually done a lot of miles so I wouldn't really comment on whether or not it affects them or not.

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    From what I understand, if you are planning to do many thousands of miles a year then hardened seats make sense but maybe sub 5,000 miles / year you could get by with using petrol treatment in the fuel.

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    Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    From what I understand, if you are planning to do many thousands of miles a year then hardened seats make sense but maybe sub 5,000 miles / year you could get by with using petrol treatment in the fuel.
    That's what I've been doing up to now, but it adds a good chunk to the cost of a full tank and only slows the effects.

    The sensible money is therefore better spent on a new head, or at least a spare head ready to switch to. Will see what Vulcan say tomorrow.



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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Dropped the head off today, there was some swearing and they asked how it ran, and I said it ran fine to which they seemed surprised, but I failed to ask why.

    He said he's done 2 of these successfully before but there is a risk of going through to water jacket.

    Just a waiting game now.

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by rallyrob View Post
    I left my head as it was in the end. It's never actually done a lot of miles so I wouldn't really comment on whether or not it affects them or not.
    I asked Vulcans how long it would last if I just ran unleaded without additives and he didn't seem confident it would be long, noting that my valve seats are already receding. Yet I've always used additives on every tank fill (Millers VSP), and probably done no more than 3000 miles on this head.

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quick question if anyone is around. Can worldcup crossmember bushes be fitted by freezing the bush and then nut & bolting it in, or is it strictly a press job?

    Tried nut and bolting it in without heating/freezing and got nowhere.

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Dropped the head off today, there was some swearing and they asked how it ran, and I said it ran fine to which they seemed surprised, but I failed to ask why.

    He said he's done 2 of these successfully before but there is a risk of going through to water jacket.

    Just a waiting game now.
    I think you are asking far too much expecting to have the old cast exhaust valve seats machined out and unleaded inserts installed. There's no miracle modern way to have them machined out, just good old fashioned engineering skills to which Vulcan will have. With the inlet and exhaust seats so close together I think there's a highly likeable chance of them cracking.

    I have never had to replace any WCXM bushes as they seem so durable especially if they are genuine bushes and not some ting tong crap. We have made a strong steel frame with a 20 tonne bottle jack to use as a press, it's ideal for jobs like that along with wheel bearings. I don't think you'll get enough torque on a M12 bolt to pull the bush in, although you could hone the bush housing out slightly with a flap wheel to remove any high spots.

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    Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    I think you are asking far too much expecting to have the old cast exhaust valve seats machined out and unleaded inserts installed. There's no miracle modern way to have them machined out, just good old fashioned engineering skills to which Vulcan will have. With the inlet and exhaust seats so close together I think there's a highly likeable chance of them cracking.

    I have never had to replace any WCXM bushes as they seem so durable especially if they are genuine bushes and not some ting tong crap. We have made a strong steel frame with a 20 tonne bottle jack to use as a press, it's ideal for jobs like that along with wheel bearings. I don't think you'll get enough torque on a M12 bolt to pull the bush in, although you could hone the bush housing out slightly with a flap wheel to remove any high spots.
    Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

    Agree about the head. Spent so much money on fuel additives over the years that long term it is more cost effective to take the risk with the existing head and buy another if it goes wrong. I'm prepared to accept the bad news if it comes to that.

    Re: the crossmember, I bought a new one as my 30 year old one looking scruffy now, but it came without the bushes installed.

    Retropower are doing a small one off production run of 40A Shore hardness WXCM bushes which will eliminate the engine vibrations commonly associated with using a WXCM for road use, and these are what I'd like to fit.

    As it happens, I remembered my wife works at an engineering firm, so she'll ask tomorrow if they've got a suitable press!

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I asked Vulcans how long it would last if I just ran unleaded without additives and he didn't seem confident it would be long, noting that my valve seats are already receding. Yet I've always used additives on every tank fill (Millers VSP), and probably done no more than 3000 miles on this head.
    Blimey, I'm lucky if my engine's done 300 miles on it's head.

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    Re: Big Wing Mk1 Escort Pinto Project - Restoration no.3

    A list of what went into my gearbox rebuild.

    Only took it in for a noisy 3rd gear and a leaking seal ha ha.

    As the box has lasted 24 years since I bought it 2nd hand, it should now last at least another 25 years, unless I get too old to put up with the straight cut noise and swop it.

    Will post photos when I collect it, but from pics I've seen it looks brand new inside and out.

    Type 9 Quaife Pro Straight Cut Rebuild
    2nd Main Gear
    2nd Lay Gear
    3rd Main Gear
    3rd Lay Gear
    Input Shaft Bearing
    Main Shaft Bearing
    Input to Mainshaft Roller Bearing
    Layshaft Needle Rollers
    Gasket Kit
    Seal Kit
    Gear Lever to Selector Shaft Saddle - Gen Ford
    1st/2nd/3rd Needle Roller Bearings x6
    5th Split Roller Bearing x2
    3rd Synchro
    Speedo Drive - White
    Speedo Drive Closure
    Speedo Worm Gear
    Laygear Main Nut
    Clutch Release Bearing.

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