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Thread: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

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    Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    hi Folks,

    Im at a bit of a crossroads at the moment on deciding on what way i should go with this, so i thought id ask the opinions here!

    At the moment im running a relatively standard XE about 180bhp in my targa rally/ road rally mk2 with a standard English axle with a 3J lsd.

    I dont abuse the car, clutch kick, dry 7k launches etc, i drive it with as much respect as i can, and in the last few years ive still broke 2 shafts running A021R's, so something is needed.

    The crossroads im at is trying to decide weather a 2 piece heavy duty shaft kit for the english will be all il need (i dont have any plans or budget to up the power any time soon) or should i start to consider a baby atlas.

    Budget is also a major factor, i dont have a bag of money to throw at it, so its as much about what will get me by as much as it is the ultimate solution.

    So my questions are - how strong are the english HD shaft kits? do i need to go rear disks with this also ? im still on drums. will this take what im doing with the car no problem?
    I can see this costing me guts of a grand by the time all is said and done.

    2. i would like to go atlas, but i can imagine the chances of me getting something suitable up and running for a grand is very unlikely? At a minimum id need a baby atlas, standard shaft would do me im sure for now, with either a 4.1 or 4.6 CWP, gripper or ZF lsd in good nick. what would i be paying for this sort of setup?

    Thanks for any comments / advice

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    My only advice would be the english axle is easier to swap ratio on if you need to change it. Otherwise you'll need a complete spare Atlas if you want to change.
    I would think an Atlas may stand you to around £1200-1500 if you want a decent CWP, an LSD, and perhaps £2000+ if you want strong shafts, custom width, and bracketry to suit your car and desired brake set-up.
    Last edited by HonkyWhiteTrash; 24-11-2020 at 13:08.

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Are there any AE86 axles for sale over in Ireland?

    Maybe an option.

    They can take a fair bit of abuse.

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Can’t say for sure about the heavy duty shafts for an English, they might be a great job, but I was at the same cross road before and went baby atlas, it cost extra but I felt it was worth it, I was also able to sell my complete English axle set up, so that helped off set the cost.

    I definitely wouldn’t go with an ae86 axle, that would be a step in the opposite direction, the shaft narrows down and is small than an English shaft. Them seem to last for doughnuts with small tyres on but that’s about it
    Last edited by Chris11090; 24-11-2020 at 15:59. Reason: Spelling

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    thanks for the replies - yeah there are loads of ae86 stuff being broken here but i wouldnt consider it tbh. wrong PCD, expensive/rare maintenance parts, wrong width... na. has to be ford.

    What should i be expecting to pay for a baby atlas with a decent CWP and a motorsport (not 2.8i) LSD? (if i could hypothetically find one)

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    atlas axles aint cheap when you dig into them. I got a while back a shortened casing with quaife semi floating shafts. A a s/h lsd, crown wheel, flange, calliper brackets, brace and diff setup and bits and bobs all done with second hand parts etc i bet i was into easy £1500 by the time it was in the car. But i suspect it will last me. As said i managed to get a good price for my english axle which helped.

    squires brother may have something second had they set up my diff and do a lot of new builds for these axles for rally cars.
    Last edited by wildo105e; 24-11-2020 at 16:28.

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    I think Andy @ Arrow Engineering had a proper ZF for Atlas axle when I spoke to him recently. And he can certainly do you a proper Atlas to any spec - he does axles to any length and will sort out brackets for you.

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Fit a 3j heavy duty galf shaft kit,fit fiesta front disc & caliper kit to rear.
    One critical factor here is diff nose angle, check this at ride height (gauge on diff flange)
    I would say with leaf springs, you don't want more than 3.5° downwards. Too much diff nose = big rear end grip & too much strain on mechanical componants.
    Too little diff nose = lack of rear grip, culminating in lots of wheelspin.

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    Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Did u break standard English shafts or RS shafts ? Seems there’s a big difference in strength


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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quote Originally Posted by piekey View Post
    Fit a 3j heavy duty galf shaft kit,fit fiesta front disc & caliper kit to rear.
    One critical factor here is diff nose angle, check this at ride height (gauge on diff flange)
    I would say with leaf springs, you don't want more than 3.5° downwards. Too much diff nose = big rear end grip & too much strain on mechanical componants.
    Too little diff nose = lack of rear grip, culminating in lots of wheelspin.
    il check it, thanks for the info.. however im struggling to see how to alter this if necessary without alot of work? surely the spring saddles set this and would need to be cut off and new ones fitted. or is there some some sort of shim workaround under the saddle? to be honest, im struggling for rear grip in most conditions but especially in greasy conditions, where im getting well beaten by a few escorts so if anything id say im too far the other way. but il check, thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ianbavs View Post
    Did u break standard English shafts or RS shafts ? Seems there’s a big difference in strength


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    they were supposed to be RS shafts, but tbh how do you know? and how do you really know the life they've led too no matter what people say, so its hard to know.

    Even though i dont abuse the car, the very fact of the way the events i do are designed is hard on the transmission - lots of stop starts, reverse over a line and take off, circling pylons etc. no matter how much sympathy you have, its hard on an axle for sure

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    Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    RS shafts have longer centre spigot maybe 10 mm approx


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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    If you have lowering blocks fitted ? The job to sort diff nose angle is easy.
    Once you know the angle you are sitting at, remove lowering blocks & have them miled/ground to the correct angle.

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Hi,

    I’m in a similar position although I’ve not broken any shafts yet. The advice I received was that uprated 22T English shafts are not much if at all better than standard English shafts, I know someone personally who twister a set straight away. I was advised you really need to go to Atlas size shafts in the English and have the diff side gears to suit, I’ve bought the shafts and hubs to do this from Squires (shafts known to be very strong) and just need to buy an English diff with 18T side gears. Should be all done for just over 1k which was a lot cheaper than what I worked out a full new baby atlas to be.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Sidways93; 29-11-2020 at 16:56.

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quote Originally Posted by onecamohv View Post
    hi Folks,

    Im at a bit of a crossroads at the moment on deciding on what way i should go with this, so i thought id ask the opinions here!

    At the moment im running a relatively standard XE about 180bhp in my targa rally/ road rally mk2 with a standard English axle with a 3J lsd.

    I dont abuse the car, clutch kick, dry 7k launches etc, i drive it with as much respect as i can, and in the last few years ive still broke 2 shafts running A021R's, so something is needed.

    The crossroads im at is trying to decide weather a 2 piece heavy duty shaft kit for the english will be all il need (i dont have any plans or budget to up the power any time soon) or should i start to consider a baby atlas.

    Budget is also a major factor, i dont have a bag of money to throw at it, so its as much about what will get me by as much as it is the ultimate solution.

    So my questions are - how strong are the english HD shaft kits? do i need to go rear disks with this also ? im still on drums. will this take what im doing with the car no problem?
    I can see this costing me guts of a grand by the time all is said and done.

    2. i would like to go atlas, but i can imagine the chances of me getting something suitable up and running for a grand is very unlikely? At a minimum id need a baby atlas, standard shaft would do me im sure for now, with either a 4.1 or 4.6 CWP, gripper or ZF lsd in good nick. what would i be paying for this sort of setup?

    Thanks for any comments / advice
    I am not surprised that you are braking English halfshafts with 180 bhp and the type of events that you're doing. Where abouts are they snapping, the splines in the diff or the outside of the wheel bearing?

    The chances of you picking a Baby Altas up now are very slim indeed. You could build your own but you are going to need, LSD, CWP and a 2 piece half shaft kit along with a narrowed casing. If you went this route I would advise buying the bigger 18 spline Group 4 shafts with the bigger side gears already fitted into the LSD.

    I would think the cheapest option's to buy the uprated 2 piece shafts of the 16 spline variety as supplied by RACE or 3J and get them to fit the larger side gears to your diff at the same time.

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    Pit Crew Decade Plus User onecamohv's Avatar

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    I am not surprised that you are braking English halfshafts with 180 bhp and the type of events that you're doing. Where abouts are they snapping, the splines in the diff or the outside of the wheel bearing?

    The chances of you picking a Baby Altas up now are very slim indeed. You could build your own but you are going to need, LSD, CWP and a 2 piece half shaft kit along with a narrowed casing. If you went this route I would advise buying the bigger 18 spline Group 4 shafts with the bigger side gears already fitted into the LSD.

    I would think the cheapest option's to buy the uprated 2 piece shafts of the 16 spline variety as supplied by RACE or 3J and get them to fit the larger side gears to your diff at the same time.

    thanks for the reply!

    both times the p/s shaft snapped at the splines - the second time i broke a tooth off each of the planets, still not fully sure how that happened.

    i think your right, although id love a baby atlas by the time all is said and done id be at least double the money of the uprated english shafts which will probably be able for what im doing. i priced the side gears off Dan in 3J before when i was getting replacements for the broken planets and they werent silly money.

    one think im struggling to find a definite answer on is if i can still run drums with the 3J shafts ? the shaft flange looks fairly big

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quite sad, I would never put a english axle to anywhere when building a car. It is not worth risking breaking whole axle. Leave English axle for history car that are 100% stock.
    Atlas axle with 18 spline, semi floating isn't even 100% bullet proof. I am running one and sometimes scared that It will break. If you are making bullet proof axle go for 9" strange light weigt alloy modular axle.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-FORD-9-...-/184090279508
    https://www.enginemaster.com.au/stra...f-case-3.250-b
    https://www.strangeengineering.net/3...loater-shafts/
    That axle has pretty much any cp-ratios 2.6 to 6.2. You have quite a nice different LSD manufacturers.
    That is axle for supremacy, unless you go for Nitromethane cars or heavy weight trucks.

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quote Originally Posted by Vermilion View Post
    Quite sad, I would never put a english axle to anywhere when building a car. It is not worth risking breaking whole axle. Leave English axle for history car that are 100% stock.
    Atlas axle with 18 spline, semi floating isn't even 100% bullet proof. I am running one and sometimes scared that It will break. If you are making bullet proof axle go for 9" strange light weigt alloy modular axle.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-FORD-9-...-/184090279508
    https://www.enginemaster.com.au/stra...f-case-3.250-b
    https://www.strangeengineering.net/3...loater-shafts/
    That axle has pretty much any cp-ratios 2.6 to 6.2. You have quite a nice different LSD manufacturers.
    That is axle for supremacy, unless you go for Nitromethane cars or heavy weight trucks.
    bit of a difference between a 180bhp xe and the sort of power your talking about though

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    bit of a difference between a 180bhp xe and the sort of power your talking about though
    With the price of special custom strenghtened english axle you could use still ford axle that has more variety and price won't be that much higher.
    That is what I was refering. You never know will the 180bhb last power output? Maybe you add a turbo to later on.

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    bit of a difference between a 180bhp xe and the sort of power your talking about though
    With the price of special custom strenghtened english axle you could use still ford axle that has more variety and price won't be that much higher.
    That is what I was refering. You never know will the 180bhb last power output? Maybe you add a turbo to later on.

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quote Originally Posted by onecamohv View Post
    Budget is also a major factor, i dont have a bag of money to throw at it, so its as much about what will get me by as much as it is the ultimate solution.
    thanks for the suggestions vermilion, but i know the solution if i had endless budget, see above

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quote Originally Posted by Vermilion View Post
    With the price of special custom strenghtened english axle you could use still ford axle that has more variety and price won't be that much higher.
    Maybe you add a turbo to later on.
    cant do that on a road rally car

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    I’ve an English axle with 3J two piece half shafts, they are massive over the standard and seem very robust, however, I only ran a standard Zetec with TB, so 160 ish.
    if you do go with them you can’t use drums, they offset an extra 10mm, unless you make a spacer or something to bring your back plate out.
    Last edited by waverunner; 06-01-2021 at 22:42.

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    Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    I think you are probably better biting the bullet and go atlas. I’ve had to do the same baby atlas 47.5 squires 2piece shafts 18 tooth 4.6 3j lsd and big 3 litre drums. Only running a pinto.

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quote Originally Posted by redhf View Post
    I think you are probably better biting the bullet and go atlas. I’ve had to do the same baby atlas 47.5 squires 2piece shafts 18 tooth 4.6 3j lsd and big 3 litre drums. Only running a pinto.
    i agree an atlas is an expensive upgrade, BUT throw a load on money at an english and have it break is actually more expensive, especially if you factor entree fees, towing your car half way across the country the DNF-ing at an event

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quote Originally Posted by waverunner View Post
    I’ve an English axle with 3J two piece half shafts, they are massive over the standard and seem very robust, however, I only ran a standard Zetec with TB, so 160 ish.
    if you do go with them you can’t use drums, they offset an extra 10mm, unless you make a spacer or something to bring your back plate out.
    IS this the heavy duty shafts or their standard? ive been looking at them to future proof but would still want to retain drums and not move the wheels out, my wheel offset is perfect and 10mm out would not work

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Its there H/D Gp whatever, 2, 4 not too sure. I was all for keeping my drums as I still wanted the "retro ness" but with the shaft pushing the drum out by 10mm, I just couldn't see a way round it, so reverted to rear discs.
    I've since upgraded my engine to a BDG, pushing 260 plus and not seeing any trouble from my English with 3J parts.

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quote Originally Posted by waverunner View Post
    Its there H/D Gp whatever, 2, 4 not too sure. I was all for keeping my drums as I still wanted the "retro ness" but with the shaft pushing the drum out by 10mm, I just couldn't see a way round it, so reverted to rear discs.
    I've since upgraded my engine to a BDG, pushing 260 plus and not seeing any trouble from my English with 3J parts.
    Thanks mate, ive seen they dont list their heavy duty ones atm. I wonder if the flange on the end is any different causing the extra width.

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quote Originally Posted by nursebetty View Post
    Thanks mate, ive seen they dont list their heavy duty ones atm. I wonder if the flange on the end is any different causing the extra width.
    I've just got my original invoice out, I've got the group 1 H/D two piece, baby 18T. They have them on the site today. I assume its the length and the flange that makes up the 10mm.

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quote Originally Posted by waverunner View Post
    I've just got my original invoice out, I've got the group 1 H/D two piece, baby 18T. They have them on the site today. I assume its the length and the flange that makes up the 10mm.
    Perhaps aimed at the baby atlas and not the english axle? im a bit unsure on their wording

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    Re: Axle advice requested - at a crossroads

    Quote Originally Posted by onecamohv View Post
    thanks for the reply!

    both times the p/s shaft snapped at the splines - the second time i broke a tooth off each of the planets, still not fully sure how that happened.

    i think your right, although id love a baby atlas by the time all is said and done id be at least double the money of the uprated english shafts which will probably be able for what im doing. i priced the side gears off Dan in 3J before when i was getting replacements for the broken planets and they werent silly money.

    one think im struggling to find a definite answer on is if i can still run drums with the 3J shafts ? the shaft flange looks fairly big
    I don't know if you ever got sorted OHV. I was looking at a Retroford's link this morning and it took me to an English axle kit that included LSD, heavy duty 18 spline half shafts and all new bearings for just over a £1000. They claim the shafts are good for 300bhp. Maybe worth a look.

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