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Thread: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    Ive done it and the results are very interesting and not what most people would expect. Unfortunately you will have to wait for the results to appear in classic ford mag, or 3 months after that when i can make them public. sorry id love to share with everyone now, but i tied so much money up in the dyno it has to start earning its keep
    I have to agree, the Dyno has to be looked upon has a Work Horse that helps to earn you your bread and butter and not as a Toy.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Dyno dog has had a bit of exercise and an upgrade,

    i did some repairs to a big valve injection head and added a newman Ph4 cam, 43cc chamber head giving 10.9CR i then decided i would fit it to dog and bed the cam in, knowing Dogs bottom end is exactly the same spec as the bottom end this head is destined for i could dial the cam in for best power so it could literally be dropped on its own bottom end and be right or very close to it.

    the heads owner has a pair of 40's but i thought i would try it on 40's and 45's



    currently fitted are 45's i started out with 34 chokes left from the previous tests but in an attempt to cure a rich spot that i wasnt able to jet out swapped the 34's for 36's, interestingly the 36's gave more power right through the rev range



    black lines are power and torque of the big valve head red lines a standard injection head and cam with same 45's., i can probably wring a little more out of it fine tuning the jetting, i didnt intend to crop the power/torque numbers but seeing as i did anyone want to guess what they are?
    Last edited by Graham; 27-05-2021 at 21:04.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Black lines intersect at 5750 rpm as they should. Why don't the red lines?

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    in fact neither graph intersect at 5252 which is where they should,

    or would if the graph scales are the same at both sides, but left and right scales are not the same so the lines wont cross at 5252.

    when i look at the data sheet which shows power/torque in numerical table both red and black runs show almost identical bhp/torque @5200 ( it doesnt log 5252 only 5200 or 5300)
    Last edited by Graham; 28-05-2021 at 08:02.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Yes ofcourse it should be 5250 rpm my mad.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    103 ftlbs and 153hp ? I know you don't like smoothing but I find those 'spikey' traces hard to follow - that midrange hole in the torque looks nasty - just as it comes 'on cam' perchance?

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Lines do not need to intersect anywhere, especially with no scalings.

    but as Graham says, IF scalings are the same number ranges, AND in lbft and Hp units, they would intersect at 5250...but only if those conditions are met.

    But I'll guess at 160hp and 115lbft
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Standard engine 112 horses, 135 torques.
    Modified engine 163 horses, 152 torques.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Power 156, Torque 145.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    103 ftlbs and 153hp ? I know you don't like smoothing but I find those 'spikey' traces hard to follow - that midrange hole in the torque looks nasty - just as it comes 'on cam' perchance?
    the mid range hole looks huge, but its only 4lbft! for some reason i have yet to fathom ( and maybe wont) the mixture goes very rich at that point so far attempts to jet it out have only resulted in it going lean elsewhere.
    advancing the cam a bit helped as it picked power up everywhere except the very top when it lost 1-2 bhp and by very top i mean 6600-6700rpm at which point i was getting nervous on a bog standard not even rebuilt engine.
    Last edited by Graham; 28-05-2021 at 18:19.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    the mid range hole looks huge, but its only 4lbft! for some reason i have yet to fathom ( and maybe wont) the mixture goes very rich at that point so far attempts to jet it out have only resulted in it going lean elsewhere.
    What emulsion tube are you using?

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    What emulsion tube are you using?
    so far F11 and F16, its better on F16

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    some interesting guesses there,

    the red run which was a bog standard injection head and cam gave 131lbft and 117bhp,

    that might change some of the modified head/cam combo guesses......

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    some interesting guesses there,

    the red run which was a bog standard injection head and cam gave 131lbft and 117bhp,

    that might change some of the modified head/cam combo guesses......
    Ehhrm yes ... also had a look at the specs of the PH4 cam.
    New guesstimate: 154 horses, 152 torques

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    Ehhrm yes ... also had a look at the specs of the PH4 cam.
    New guesstimate: 154 horses, 152 torques
    actually your first guess was closer, the engine revs on further than the cam specs suggest. exhaust is small bore ashley 4,2,1

    there might even be a bit of power lurking in the intake manifold, its as cast not matched to the head, so the ports are smaller than the head by a noticeable amount. being a dyno mule i cant really match it to anything, so far its already been on 4 different heads for testing purposes
    Last edited by Graham; 29-05-2021 at 10:39.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    so far F11 and F16, its better on F16
    If you have F9 try that. For Pintos with a big cam (say 300 degrees or more) I have found that a F34 tube (or a F4) cures most of the holes in the midrange torquecurve.
    Anyway proof that you don't need a long duration cam to get some good horsepower.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    ive just ordered some F9s

    i fitted a new rotor arm and some harder plugs, AP7FS instead of 6's that seemed to pick up a fraction at the top end, mixture is still wobbling around, mostly a bit rich, but very rich around 3700, quite rich around 4700 bit lean at 5000 and 6500! it doesn't like 150 main or 180 airs so
    i think it wants 155 mains and 190 airs but im still waiting on those sizes to come in, its currently got 160 main 200 air


    but the current scores on the doors are 146lbft @5000 164 bhp @ 6700 got to say im bloody impressed with that power from the PH4 cam,

    the graph below isnt quite the same one i posted earlier, the red run is but the black run is from today


    Last edited by Graham; 30-05-2021 at 06:41.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    interesting as the graph looks quite linear ?
    this is what JASON (RWD FORDS RULE) said back in 2016
    "Hold on guys I have the Definitive answer as I have mapped both Phase 4 Newman and FR30 / BP134

    ALL of the Newman cams have HUGE amounts of Overlap at TDC, they are super bad for fast road use imho, you will have a HOLE in the power band above idle, that is why they list PH4 as a power band of 2000 to 6000rpm, the difference between the Overlap Lift on PH4 vs FR30/BP134 is HUGE!!! (which means the overlap degrees and flow reversals are also HUGE at low rpm)"
    "At the point where both valves are open equally it is less than 1mm as already said with FR30 and BP134, for the Newman PH4 it is over 2.5mm!! insane overlap for a fast road cam, it would be an excellent cam if they widened the LSA by 4 or 5 degrees at least, you want an LSA of 111 to 112* for fast road, not the crazy tight LSA Newman Use which is like a Race Cam, hence the overlap is huge and the intake closing and exhaust opening points are too low to make any decent top end power, so you end up with an engine that is crap below 2000rpm, great in the mid range and crap top end, with the wider LSA of FR30 / BP134 you get a super wide spread of power everywhere, less in the mid range but no hole in low end just off idle and better top end above peak power."

    do you know if NEWMAN have changed the profile since then ?
    that said the graph doesnt really appear to start untill 2500 rpm if thats correct ?
    Last edited by alladdin; 30-05-2021 at 12:19.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by alladdin View Post


    that said the graph doesnt really appear to start until 2500 rpm if thats correct ?
    2500 rpm is the load in point of the dyno, the point at which the dyno holds the engine as you open the throttle, its adjustable it will go lower down to around 2000rpm sometimes less, depending on engines torque and rev range if you have a 800bhp v8 which revs to 8000 you would probably have a load in rpm of 4000

    so whilst i could load the engine up at lower RPM i tend not to, its kinder to the equipment and engine.

    let me explain, what you do is set test rpm start point, open the throttle to WOT, the dyno will respond and drag the revs down to the required RPM, you let the rpm and engine torque stabilize, this takes several seconds, at which point you hit the go button and the engine is allowed to rev, its the equivalent of driving your car slowly in a low gear, full throttle and max braking at the same time, the load on everything is immense.

    that cam will take full throttle down at 2000 rpm, although why you would is beyond me unless you have a diesel
    Last edited by Graham; 30-05-2021 at 14:20.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    ive just run it up again, with a pair of 40's. The smaller carbs are easier to jet for sure, my first guess was close enough leave alone, and through most of the rev range match the 45's, note i say most


    the graph in the above test certainly would be a bit smoother if i can iron out the bumps in the AFR

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    just for mike ive done another pull, it held full throttle down at 2000 rpm, it could of gone lower but not without adjusting the absorber itself and i didnt want it to mess with that as ive found the sweet spot for the current engine.





    below 2400 it does loose out to a standard cam by about 20lbft but a standard cam wont give useful power all the way to 6800!

    i use both this cam and the FR30, i must admit it would never occur to me to use both the in the same application.
    Last edited by Graham; 30-05-2021 at 15:01.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    so does this refute jasons claim that it would be a terrible fast road cam ? ( and if so maybe grind has changed ) , would it be a pig on smaller more progressive throttle low down ? all a bit off topic really but its not often you see results from newman etc. and thanks Graham , i wasnt looking to keep you working

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by alladdin View Post
    so does this refute jasons claim that it would be a terrible fast road cam ? ( and if so maybe grind has changed ) , would it be a pig on smaller more progressive throttle low down ? all a bit off topic really but its not often you see results from newman etc. and thanks Graham , i wasnt looking to keep you working
    no i don't think it would be a terrible fast road cam it might just depend on how fast you want!

    on 45's this head/cam combo gave 165bhp and hung on to the power all the way to 6800, if you only want 140bhp or an engine to go to around 6K there are defiantly better cams. i have installed this cam in a Westfield you couldnt of asked for more drivability than that had, infact the last thing that needed was more low down torque it struggled to cope with what it had, at one point i thought the clutch was slipping, it wasnt it was 3rd gear wheel spin and i wasnt in hooligan mode

    ive just run the engine up again on a 32/36, on a standard engine a 32/36 will match a pair of 40's all the way to 4,000 rpm, on this engine it was down from the moment go, at the top end it was nearly 30bhp down on the 45's, with not surprisingly the 40's being somewhere in the middle.

    ultimately none of this truly reflects drivability, dyno testing is all done a full throttle, all i can go by is how easy it is to load the engine to full throttle, on the 32/36 you can just wack the throttle open, the 40's need a bit more finesse and the 45's you defiantly have to be a bit more gentle that said, that's exactly the same thing you find driving them on the roads and getting the idle jets right makes a vast difference here.
    Last edited by Graham; 30-05-2021 at 16:14.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    no i don't think it would be a terrible fast road cam it might just depend on how fast you want!

    on 45's this head/cam combo gave 165bhp and hung on to the power all the way to 6800, if you only want 140bhp or an engine to go to around 6K there are defiantly better cams. i have installed this cam in a Westfield you couldnt of asked for more drivability than that had, infact the last thing that needed was more low down torque it struggled to cope with what it had, at one point i thought the clutch was slipping, it wasnt it was 3rd gear wheel spin and i wasnt in hooligan mode

    ive just run the engine up again on a 32/36, on a standard engine a 32/36 will match a pair of 40's all the way to 4,000 rpm, on this engine it was down from the moment go, at the top end it was nearly 30bhp down on the 45's, with not surprisingly the 40's being somewhere in the middle.

    ultimately none of this truly reflects drivability, dyno testing is all done a full throttle, all i can go by is how easy it is to load the engine to full throttle, on the 32/36 you can just wack the throttle open, the 40's need a bit more finesse and the 45's you defiantly have to be a bit more gentle that said, that's exactly the same thing you find driving them on the roads and getting the idle jets right makes a vast difference here.
    I have a brand new 4.75 cam, you are more than welcome to borrow that if it helps you with your development program Graham.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    I have a brand new 4.75 cam, you are more than welcome to borrow that if it helps you with your development program Graham.
    Mmmm. That would be interesting as I fancy a 4.75 in the hope that it would give a slight improvement on my Holbay cam.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    I have a brand new 4.75 cam, you are more than welcome to borrow that if it helps you with your development program Graham.
    many thanks for the offer, i might take you up on it if we can get a number of cams together and do a back to back test, i have a newman P5. so thats basically an RL31 and HT1!

    with this episode i wasn't actually looking to do any sort of development program, the plan was break in the customers cam, time it in and see what carburettors best suited it, i know he has 40's and now i can make a recommendation, if he isnt going much past 5,000 rpm and is happy to settle for 150bhp then he needs do nothing other than make sure he has at least 32mm chokes in the carbs, but if he wants the 166bhp this combo has to offer then he needs 45's.
    Last edited by Graham; 30-05-2021 at 16:43.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by alladdin View Post
    interesting as the graph looks quite linear ?
    this is what JASON (RWD FORDS RULE) said back in 2016
    "Hold on guys I have the Definitive answer as I have mapped both Phase 4 Newman and FR30 / BP134

    ALL of the Newman cams have HUGE amounts of Overlap at TDC, they are super bad for fast road use imho, you will have a HOLE in the power band above idle,
    A big overlap at TDC is "bad" if you use a single carb like a DGV/DGAV not when using twin carbs.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by rallyrob View Post
    Mmmm. That would be interesting as I fancy a 4.75 in the hope that it would give a slight improvement on my Holbay cam.
    that's one area the dyno has a big advantage over a rolling road, we could bolt your engine to the dyno and do back to back cam tests quickly without removing the head

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    that's one area the dyno has a big advantage over a rolling road, we could bolt your engine to the dyno and do back to back cam tests quickly without removing the head
    As much as that's a really good idea, sadly my engine would need a bit of work before being able to do this. Not sure how it translates back to flywheel power but my engine was putting out 160bhp @ the wheels. But that was on 4 star and 25yrs ago.
    Last edited by rallyrob; 30-05-2021 at 17:08.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    many thanks for the offer, i might take you up on it if we can get a number of cams together and do a back to back test, i have a newman P5. so thats basically an RL31 and HT1!

    with this episode i wasn't actually looking to do any sort of development program, the plan was break in the customers cam, time it in and see what carburettors best suited it, i know he has 40's and now i can make a recommendation, if he isnt going much past 5,000 rpm and is happy to settle for 150bhp then he needs do nothing other than make sure he has at least 32mm chokes in the carbs, but if he wants the 166bhp this combo has to offer then he needs 45's.
    The offers there, if you need the cam then let me know and I'll have it sent to you.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by rallyrob View Post
    As much as that's a really good idea, sadly my engine would need a bit of work before being able to do this. Not sure how it translates back to flywheel power but my engine was putting out 160bhp @ the wheels. But that was on 4 star and 25yrs ago.
    all depends on who rollers! Pete Baldwins were easy, whatever he said you had at the wheels was about right at the flywheel. Dave walker used to say to me, if he saw 110bhp at the wheels @5000 on the way up he knew it was going to be a good-un. whatever is was probably a pretty strong motor back in its day. 4 star/super unleaded wont make much difference except it wont want as much timing on unleaded. back in the day 36 degrees advance on a pinto was common, this one ive just run wanted 28. if they want more than 32 these days then somethings defiantly wrong

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    My pinto back in the day use to run best at 36 degree's that with a GP1 head and valves and a pair of 48's .... Graham ive got a old tobacco tin with loads of tubes , mains , air's and slow running jets. Will dig it out and send it you as ive no use for them now ....

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Johnston View Post
    My pinto back in the day use to run best at 36 degree's that with a GP1 head and valves and a pair of 48's .... Graham ive got a old tobacco tin with loads of tubes , mains , air's and slow running jets. Will dig it out and send it you as ive no use for them now ....

    thanks that would be great

    36 degrees would of been on 4 star, unleaded burns faster needs less, when unleaded came in we had a near full time job retarding the ignition timing on everything
    ing

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    all depends on who rollers! Pete Baldwins were easy, whatever he said you had at the wheels was about right at the flywheel. Dave walker used to say to me, if he saw 110bhp at the wheels @5000 on the way up he knew it was going to be a good-un. whatever is was probably a pretty strong motor back in its day. 4 star/super unleaded wont make much difference except it wont want as much timing on unleaded. back in the day 36 degrees advance on a pinto was common, this one ive just run wanted 28. if they want more than 32 these days then somethings defiantly wrong
    Hi Graham, what RPM would you set that advance at, please?
    I'm sure mine was set at 36deg when I had my carbs set up.
    I'm running an FR30 and I've got some det under load, usually uphill between 2500 to 3000rpm ish. I wonder if this is contributing to it...

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Without stealing Graham's thunder but yes definitely - can't do much about the fuel, changing down a gear is an option to get away from the det. zone or knocking off a couple of degrees will be a long term solution although no longer absolutely optimal for 90% of use.

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by dt36 View Post
    Hi Graham, what RPM would you set that advance at, please?
    I'm sure mine was set at 36deg when I had my carbs set up.
    I'm running an FR30 and I've got some det under load, usually uphill between 2500 to 3000rpm ish. I wonder if this is contributing to it...
    at the risk of sounding like a stuck record, 36 is too much, assuming it has a reasonable amount of compression around 28-30 degrees @3000

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by dt36 View Post
    Hi Graham, what RPM would you set that advance at, please?
    I'm sure mine was set at 36deg when I had my carbs set up.
    I'm running an FR30 and I've got some det under load, usually uphill between 2500 to 3000rpm ish. I wonder if this is contributing to it...
    Get a can of octane booster put it in the tank and test if the detonation has gone.
    Timing usually is set at 5000 rpm upwards (distributor ignition) .

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Thank you all. Appreciate your comments.
    I'll take a look at this on the weekend and get it out for a run

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    On a pinto timing is all out around 3000 to 3500 rpm 5000 rpm is to high up the rev range some may add to this cheers mario.��

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    Re: The adventures of dyno dog pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by mariors2000 View Post
    On a pinto timing is all out around 3000 to 3500 rpm 5000 rpm is to high up the rev range some may add to this cheers mario.��
    nothing wrong with doing it at such high revs for sure 100% the distributor will of maxed out the advance at that point, its just a bit hair raising thats all.

    we did used to do rolling road timing swings at 5000rpm on engine with radical cams that made peak torque that high up the rev range, but there little need to do that these days

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