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Thread: Historic rally mk2 group 1.5

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    Bodger

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    Historic rally mk2 group 1.5

    Just thought of opening my own thread after reading some of the others, to use it to seek for advices (whitout opening more threads) as the car is a building process, albeit it being already racing.

    Car is unarched, it was "build" to do regularty sport, which is basically having fun on close roads, no racing involved (like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tUjtLXEddA).
    After a few years of this low cost pointless "racing", me and my father decided to give it a go at new born historic gravel rallies, even if the car is not really race ready.

    Car has a std bottom end pinto, cnc machined head from burton with f33 cam, cr should be around 10.7 (calculated not measured), running on weber 44idf.
    4 speed rocket box, english axle with 3j lsd.

    Suspension wise is basically standard, we tried to do some spring work with threaded tubes, to adjust ride height, but big diameter springs doesn't seems to work well, it's not responsive over bumps and not that much adjustable.

    rear is single leaf spring with bilsteins, gp1 for tarmac and fast rallies, and softer one for rougher terrain.

    By now, after the pandemic lockdowns, we have done 4 gravel rallies, first two were nightmares, started 10/15 historic cars, both times only 4-5 cars arrived, roads were too harsh for 13inch cars, because you have to remember we start after 40-50 4x4 r5 monster plus n4 subarus and evo.

    Third rally was val d'orcia a month ago, better road conditions, the car went well and we managed to keep a full gr.2 spec kadett (injection, full coilovers, 5 speed box, ecc...) behind. Unfortunately it was the only car quite "comparable", other car in class is a monster bmw320 with 6pot engine, with a crazy good driver also.

    Fourth rally last week was rally adriatico, with super smooth and fast roads, perfect for our escort, but a "strange" thing happened, basically the rear right halfshaft bearing retainer collapsed, it was noisy on road sections, and undrivable on stages, after 4 stages it collapsed resulting in the wheel going out. (not completely, so we managed to stop safely). But with the rear wheel moving around it was impossible to drive and times were miles away.

    Now we have a good stop, next gravel rally will be at october, so in the mean time we are planning to fix a few things, which is why I opened this tread, to have some guidance if someone is interested in it.

    First thing on the list is to change the suspension set up at the front, I was thinking at grp4 fab. front legs, with alloy hubs and adjustable tca.
    I'll be going with 260/60 bilstein inserts and long springs.... regarding the pounding of the springs, is there any difference between big diameter and 2.25ones? currently we have 190lbs big springs on, feels good and I would like a similar setup.

    Second thing on the list will be to upgrade rear english diff with quaife kit, to avoid failures, but with 160-170hp it doesn't make sense to go with baby atlas.

    Third (and final?) thing will be the engine, I have a std block and a head ready to be worked with, but the main restrictions in power I have now are 44 carbs, 48dcoes will be the main problem as it will be hard to find genuine ones.
    Also with a 11/11.5 cr I don't really know which cam will it be best, because last thing I want is and engine with no torque under 4k.


    Hope this could be intersting to someone, rallying with a not perfect car against full gp.2, gpA and gp4 beasts is not easy, but it's fun.

    Enea.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails foto escort.png‎  


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    Bodger

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    Re: Historic rally mk2 group 1.5

    Nice to see an unarched mk2 without crazy expensive bits on it trying to mess with the big rallycars! Nice story.

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    Re: Historic rally mk2 group 1.5

    Little upgrade, changed front struts and hubs, now it has bilstein long gravel inserts and small springs, also adjustable TCAs.

    We have done a regularty sport here in verona, super nice feedback from the front even with gravel dampers.

    Now next race should be in december, in tuscany on old sanremo stages, super smooth and quite fast roads.

    In the meantime I purchased a Pinto, I'm in the process of rebuilding the bottom end, I'm going forged and I'm aiming at around 11.3CR, with longer cosworth rods it will be only matter of having the right cylinder head gasket thickness.
    It is staying on 44idf with 36 chokes, still not sure regarding the size of exhaust manifold, but I will do it next year, now its going with ashley std one, it will be only for 1 rally.

    The question is:
    should I have an oil cooler and electric fan? I don't want to risk a new engine over hot oil issues, and I won't have time to test it, order everything and than fit it before december.
    If I have an oil cooler, do I need high pressure pump? High volume one now is out of stock from burton and no idea where to find another...

    Thanks to anyone willing to help.

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    Re: Historic rally mk2 group 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Enea View Post
    Little upgrade, changed front struts and hubs, now it has bilstein long gravel inserts and small springs, also adjustable TCAs.

    We have done a regularty sport here in verona, super nice feedback from the front even with gravel dampers.

    Now next race should be in december, in tuscany on old sanremo stages, super smooth and quite fast roads.

    In the meantime I purchased a Pinto, I'm in the process of rebuilding the bottom end, I'm going forged and I'm aiming at around 11.3CR, with longer cosworth rods it will be only matter of having the right cylinder head gasket thickness.
    It is staying on 44idf with 36 chokes, still not sure regarding the size of exhaust manifold, but I will do it next year, now its going with ashley std one, it will be only for 1 rally.

    The question is:
    should I have an oil cooler and electric fan? I don't want to risk a new engine over hot oil issues, and I won't have time to test it, order everything and than fit it before december.
    If I have an oil cooler, do I need high pressure pump? High volume one now is out of stock from burton and no idea where to find another...

    Thanks to anyone willing to help.
    I would say definitely yes to an electric fan run with a thermostat but also a manual override switch. It's a win win as you will gain a few BHP by doing away with the standard belt driven fan plus its far more efficient at cooling.
    Regarding the oil cooler I run a similar CR on a rally car and run a Modine heat exchanger these were fitted as standard to Cosworth engines which is the same block so you can often pick them up second hand. The Modine is instead of an oil cooler and saves having vulnerable oil pipes running to the front of the car along some weight saving too. Im told a lot of the historic rally pintos run this set up.

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    Re: Historic rally mk2 group 1.5

    If you do fit - any kind - of oil cooler, there is no need for a high pressure or high volume pump! The oil cooler is just a reservoir, full of oil, it will have a very small pressure drop across its core, maybe 1psi, so effectively what comes in, goes out in the same fashion.

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    Re: Historic rally mk2 group 1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by vataman View Post
    I would say definitely yes to an electric fan run with a thermostat but also a manual override switch. It's a win win as you will gain a few BHP by doing away with the standard belt driven fan plus its far more efficient at cooling.
    Regarding the oil cooler I run a similar CR on a rally car and run a Modine heat exchanger these were fitted as standard to Cosworth engines which is the same block so you can often pick them up second hand. The Modine is instead of an oil cooler and saves having vulnerable oil pipes running to the front of the car along some weight saving too. Im told a lot of the historic rally pintos run this set up.
    Thanks, I've gone for the electric fan, a 305mm one... it will have a temperature switch fitted on the radiator, will close at 92 degrees, and open at 87, thermostat is in place with 82degrees opening. I should be safe regarding temperatures.


    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    If you do fit - any kind - of oil cooler, there is no need for a high pressure or high volume pump! The oil cooler is just a reservoir, full of oil, it will have a very small pressure drop across its core, maybe 1psi, so effectively what comes in, goes out in the same fashion.
    Thanks, I thought there may be some pressure drop as the circuit became way longer, but the way you put it make sense, being completely full there won't be any real issue.
    I found a race track to test the new engine, so any problem will come out. I'll try to find a gauge to measure oil pressure and then in case I'll swap to an high pressure pump.

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    Re: Historic rally mk2 group 1.5

    Back from last rally of the year, historic rally del brunello, on montalcino stages (ex wrc sanremo stages), 80 competitive kilometers.

    New engine was finished and started on tuesday, left from home on wednesday, thanks to dhl who lost my shipment in heatrow airport, luckily it arrived right on time, it was scheduled to arrive a full week before...

    The engine performed really well compared to the old one, still not really powerful (I think between 160 and 170hp), but it has a good chunk of torque from 3 to 5k, which is what I'm more interested about, maybe a cam like RL21 will suit it better.

    The stages were amazing, super smooth gravel despite the mud, quite fast in places but always to be driven sideways.

    Unfortunately friday afternoon my father (driver) started without enough trust in the car and in the pacenotes, so we lost a lot of time on the 2 stages, with also a small off on a really slow corner, he tried to drive clean, but on mud no escort will corner without scandinavian flick. Also it was raining, and the 200lbs front springs are a bit too hard, so the nose won't pitch under braking, good on grippy conditions, not on mud.

    Saturday with no rain it all went way better, times were on par with the other fast guys in the same class, only a small moment at the end of a stage, cutting too much a fast corner we almost spun on the finish line, luckily he managed to keep it on the road.
    After that it was even more on attack mode, so we went wide at a long hairpin, there was a guard rail (luckily, again) so only a minor damage, and a rear lamp to buy new.

    We finished second in class, behind a well driven 131 racing.

    Here a video from the rally, won by a talented guy on a lancia rally 037, ahead of his father with a delta integrale.
    Enjoy the 4 top escorts, number 2-4 and 7 are bdg, 6 is a super powerfull pinto.
    We are n°23.

    https://youtu.be/lwd7g0iUYLc

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    Re: Historic rally mk2 group 1.5

    good vid, car looked to be going well

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    Re: Historic rally mk2 group 1.5

    Those Stages look awesome and the Cars sound beautiful, thanks for sharing that.

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    Re: Historic rally mk2 group 1.5

    Back from first event of the year, rally valle del tevere, on gravel/mud/snow.... just that we raced only 3km, broken halfshaft at a gravel/tarmac junction.
    Now I'm looking for a 48,5" atlas axle, to rally also on tarmac events. It doesn't make sense to spend more money on an english axle, also because the power will increase again in the next few years.

    Here the other guys having fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlyCOgBJTns

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    Re: Historic rally mk2 group 1.5

    Little update, changed the axle, went for a baby atlas, Now I understand the difference in reliability, like father and son dimension wise.

    I drove the car for the first time (being my father usually the "driver") at an event here close to home, on tarmac, with no timings involved... wow, what a fun car it is, I'm used to a stock mk7 Fiesta ST as my daily, but the escort mk2 is on another planet, the engagement of a direct steering with no filters, braking on 2 pumps without servo, throttle on a cable, carbs induction noise, the rear sliding on the limit.... just a crazy feeling.

    It went well for the first two stages (10ks each), then water temp. went high and had to retire, the head gasket failed (lesson learned, do not reuse a cometic gasket if the black layer is gone, even if only in little places). Now I have 4 pistons custom made, and I'm looking for an Head, because mine is cracked between the seats on cy.1 and 4. (don't know if it cracked here or before, didn't check it in quite a "long" time). I tried Graham here but probably is busy ad he didn't answered, checking a couple of uk builders, and an italian one... the italian one wanted 3 times the price of a burton stage3 head.... to copy the burton stage 3 head

    Here at min.1 me driving it, it was the first stage, but the car felt like a toy.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZK8DOj9xdc&t=69s

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    Re: Historic rally mk2 group 1.5

    After the engine blew, I bought a new head from Vulcan, a stage1, RL31 cam, went 11.3CR.
    Did the engine work myself, rebored and honed, polished crank, checked conrods. Then lightened the flywheel to 6kg. Pistons are custom made from an italian company, not the best accuracy unfortunately, luckily I'm not chasing the "ultimate power", so I made it work, otherwise I would have had to skim the pistons and rework the CR.

    Turned it on and it was getting hot like crazy, It turns out it was the thermostat valve stuck, so probably I blew the engine because of that, now I'm running without it, and with the electric fan it works ok, I'll probably do some kind of blockage of the grill in winter rallyes.

    Went on track to bed in the engine and do some fun laps, but the engine did look way too lean, so it went on rollers the week after.
    Basically the main problem was air restrictor, so we changed it from 200 to 180.
    On the rollers we went from 180 mains down to 160, now it is on 12.8afr on high revs.

    Click image for larger version Name:	rulli escort.jpg Views:	62 Size:	102.8 KB ID:	88093

    This is the rollers graph, low line is first try. After the first try we did a pull with the bonnet open, it was 6hp more. It was also 35 degrees, but I don't know how the software account for that.
    So basically the engine free to breathe is around 160hp and 200nm of torque. It looks quite low HP relative to the torque. we only tried to switch ignition timing around, but with no gains. I'd like to try again switching a little the cam timing, just for curiosity.

    Last week I did my first proper historic rally driving, it was a blast, until cable clutch snapped.

    We did 16th time on 35 in the night stage with wet tyres, than 12th time the first stage the day after, only 1s/km slower than my "teammate" on a full group4 mk2.

    Here a couple of videos of the historic rally.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJA1KF7n7ok&t=466s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqxdIMmNMu4&t=517s
    Last edited by Enea; 25-09-2022 at 16:15.

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