competition pinto build advice

[onecamohv]

Hi Folks, im embarking on a targa rally pinto build - and i was hoping the pinto guru's on here might throw their eye on it as i wouldnt have a huge amount of pinto experience.
This is for my own car, not a customers so im open to all suggestions budget permitting

ive just picked up a '20' Low mileage donor carb engine, and another unmodified injection head which il be using.

The build list so far

1. Completely strip, lighten the small ends and balance the rods - (ive heard alot both sides to the story of the forged vs injection rods, but in reality, there seems to be very little in it. would i be silly to go searching for a set of injection rods ? im half considering a set of maxspeeding chinesium rods - lots of people singing their praises and i cant find one case of failure? we'd all like a set of arrow rods but.....
2. Deck the block for 10 thou protrusion, and rebore to next size - MAHLE cast piston kit or possibly accrilites if i can up the budget a bit if a few things i have sell...
3. polish and balance stock crank - new King mains and big ends - double dowel
4. burton HV oil pump ( jury is out on this too - needed with an oil cooler? )
5. oil cooler
6. ARP rod bolts and head stud kit
7. Port the injection head myself to Vizard spec + what ive read on here between Graham and Jason (rwd fords rule) in old threads
8. CC head and skim for 10.5 - 10.7 CR - Felpro HG, il go uo the compression to 11.2 if i go forged pistons
9. 45.5mm burton stainless inlets tripple cotter. 38mm exhaust. i still cant seem to find 110mm length valves from REC or otherwise, so i guess i just have to make do and try to get the lift as close as i can??
10. k-liners & new HD cam bearings
11. new full RL31 cam kit
12. 2 X 45 DCOE
13. Ashley 3 piece
14. megajolt ignition - TPS and crank trigger

thanks for any advice

the few things on my mind are coughing up for accrilites and going to 11.2CR, worth it in the real world?

the rod situation? lighten the early forged rods or find and injection set even though theres not alot in it on a good day, or go to china
valve lengths = whats the latest on this less than ideal scenario of not being able to get 110mm valves?
and pulling the trigger on the cam choice - is the RL31 the best choice for me?

the car will be used mostly in 1st/2nd gear (some 3rd) targa rallies, where torque and throttle response is important, but strong pull up in the rpms is important too

cheers!

[alladdin]

inlet valves i think you want are
REC 882/1 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre 1.800”/45.7mm Inlet O/S H/D, Std. Length, Single Groove Kit RK8 Collets or Essex V6 Collets & Retainers

[Graham]

inlet valves i think you want are
REC 882/1 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre 1.800”/45.7mm Inlet O/S H/D, Std. Length, Single Groove Kit RK8 Collets or Essex V6 Collets & Retainers

Thats what i would use.

triple collet valve might be good for road use as they keep the valve seats in better sealing condition, but the rotation wears the valves and collets.

for competition use i would go with forged pistons. for road use cast ones seem to last at around 10.5 forever, but they do fail in hard use, the oval boys were always changing them for that reason.

re rods, find a set of yb rods

[alladdin]

i have been looking at K liners but price of tooling seems to make it uneconomical on a DIY basis so i am leaning towards having them fitted. ianyone know otherwise ?

[onecamohv]

Thanks for the reply guys, IL check out those valves thanks, missed that they were std length, I thought they were all 111.3mm, cheers for that.

Re: the yb rods, I don't want to go V6 pistons, would the accrilites Have enough meat to be suitable for skimming to suit the rod length and groove for circlips?

Any further comments good bad or otherwise regarding the spec?
I'm hoping for a strong 170bhp+ with plenty of torque

Cheers

[Sidways93]

Hi,

Should be a decent spec motor, my advise would be for the events you’re doing just make sure you don’t go too far with the cam as you won’t see the benefit (you’ve seen my thread re cam for Targa type events). The fact you can run twins helps and means you probably could get away with the cam little more.


Personally, I’d put the absolute best bottom end together you can first time around, you can optimise everything around it then.

Cheers

[onecamohv]

Cheers thats the reason why I was going for the RL31 going by the experience of others on here, but any other suggestions are welcome.

[Graham]

Thanks for the reply guys, IL check out those valves thanks, missed that they were std length, I thought they were all 111.3mm, cheers for that.

Re: the yb rods, I don't want to go V6 pistons, would the accrilites Have enough meat to be suitable for skimming to suit the rod length and groove for circlips?

Any further comments good bad or otherwise regarding the spec?
I'm hoping for a strong 170bhp+ with plenty of torque

Cheers

Accralites will easily handle being shortened to your requirements. and will already valve circlip groves.

i currently have a similar spec motor on the dyno, its 2.1 but has less compression, fitted with 45's and 36chokes, and small bore 421, it has showed 150lbft and 166 bhp, there might be a couple of horsepower left in there on the current set up but not a huge amount more

[Miniliteman]

What's the spec of the car? Gearbox? Axle? Suspension?

[onecamohv]

Accralites will easily handle being shortened to your requirements. and will already valve circlip groves.

i currently have a similar spec motor on the dyno, its 2.1 but has less compression, fitted with 45's and 36chokes, and small bore 421, it has showed 150lbft and 166 bhp, there might be a couple of horsepower left in there on the current set up but not a huge amount more

Cheers Graham.
Same valves in that motor?
What's holding it back do you think? ?

I just provisionally sold my whole XE setup so that has released some badly needed funds so IL probably go for the accrilites now.
I'm Thinking 11.3 Cr Is probably the max I'd get away with on an RL31 with 95 pump fuel we have here with CVL , or is that pushing it at bit on 95?

[onecamohv]

What's the spec of the car? Gearbox? Axle? Suspension?

BGH E8 Type 9 (2.75 1st)
English axle 4.1
300/70 bilsteins in the front 200lb springs
Double width kit
Bilstein rear (standard turrets) single leafs
Panhard rod

[Graham]

Cheers Graham.
Same valves in that motor?
What's holding it back do you think? ?

I just provisionally sold my whole XE setup so that has released some badly needed funds so IL probably go for the accrilites now.
I'm Thinking 11.3 Cr Is probably the max I'd get away with on an RL31 with 95 pump fuel we have here with CVL , or is that pushing it at bit on 95?

i dont know what valves are in it, but they are big. compression is 10.6. as i said ive not quite finished tuning it. plus i want to try some different chokes and exhaust manifolds. 95 and cvl should be ok

[onecamohv]

cheers Graham.

any other opinions with regards to the oil pump requirements running a cooler ? il have a look out for a set of YB rods, id imagine theyre quite scarce these days...

[alladdin]

i will be interested as to how usable the rl31 is for your application. from the way you descrbe it i keep thinking a lower grunt cam would be better but then i have never driven a pinto with rl31....................

[Graham]

cheers Graham.

any other opinions with regards to the oil pump requirements running a cooler ? il have a look out for a set of YB rods, id imagine theyre quite scarce these days...

if you have big 5/8 oil lines and a decent sized cooler it should have no real effect on the oil pump

theres a set of YB rods on ebay at the moment £200 only stinger is they are in malta

[wildo105e]

cheers Graham.

any other opinions with regards to the oil pump requirements running a cooler ? il have a look out for a set of YB rods, id imagine theyre quite scarce these days...

I have a set somewhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[onecamohv]

if you have big 5/8 oil lines and a decent sized cooler it should have no real effect on the oil pump

theres a set of YB rods on ebay at the moment £200 only stinger is they are in malta

Do the yb rods need to be modified (milled) at the small end Graham for fitting the likes of accrilites?
Re: pistons, are the accrilites still the best option value for money?

I'd have to take approx 40thou+ off a new set of accrilites with yb rods for a 10thou protrusion on a standard block it looks like

[Graham]

accrilites are a direct fit on the yb rods, no mods needed, other than you will need to machine piston crown, 1mm off is no problem, they are thick enough to stand at least 2mm.

valve for money, dunno depends who is asking. Wossners are probably a bit lighter but not as bullet proof, that said you wont break one with an N/A pinto. Accrilties are made in the uk so thats a big thumbs up for me

[onecamohv]

Sounds good thanks Graham! That's probably what IL go for so. Still waiting on mail back from REC regarding valves.

I think IL also add ARP head studs to the build.

What's the recommendation on a HG I was leaning for felpro?

[Graham]

I'd use a victor rienze cheaper and freely available

[onecamohv]

Sounds good cheers.
IL document the build for anyone interested, the challenge/learning curve for me will be the head porting, but I'm looking forward to this build.
Thanks for all the advice !
As always, any suggestions for anything I haven't thought of or mentioned here, I'm all ears

[Graham]

Thanks for the reply guys, IL check out those valves thanks, missed that they were std length, I thought they were all 111.3mm, cheers for that.

Re: the yb rods, I don't want to go V6 pistons, would the accrilites Have enough meat to be suitable for skimming to suit the rod length and groove for circlips?

Any further comments good bad or otherwise regarding the spec?
I'm hoping for a strong 170bhp+ with plenty of torque

Cheers

im not sure about using a 3 piece exhaust manifold, on a 154bhp engine it lost power and torque everywhere compared to the small bore.

im at home so a cant post a graph, but ive had a rl31 equipped 2.1pinto on 45's running on the dyno today, fitted with a SMALL bore ashley 421, i got 150lbft and 163bhp with 36mm chokes, 38mm gave 152lbft and 175bhp.

i will run the engine up again with the 3 piece

[katana]

That's a nice jump just through swapping chokes! Do you generally see torque benefits when using 4-2-1 manifolds over 4-1 type like bike engines show? Most bike exhaust manifolds tend to have primaries at least as big as the intake choke's and usually a couple of mm bigger - so small bore never enters the equation LOL!

[Graham]

That's a nice jump just through swapping chokes! Do you generally see torque benefits when using 4-2-1 manifolds over 4-1 type like bike engines show? Most bike exhaust manifolds tend to have primaries at least as big as the intake choke's and usually a couple of mm bigger - so small bore never enters the equation LOL!

dont know ive not run anything up on a 4-1 yet, but am likely too soon.

re chokes yes a big difference, but the 38's have about 10% more area than the 36's so thats a lot more potential airflow

[onecamohv]

im not sure about using a 3 piece exhaust manifold, on a 154bhp engine it lost power and torque everywhere compared to the small bore.

im at home so a cant post a graph, but ive had a rl31 equipped 2.1pinto on 45's running on the dyno today, fitted with a SMALL bore ashley 421, i got 150lbft and 163bhp with 36mm chokes, 38mm gave 152lbft and 175bhp.

i will run the engine up again with the 3 piece

thats an incredible difference with a choke change PARTICULARLY without a drop in torque! did the torque peak move up the rev range much Graham? was there any major negatives to the 38 vs 36 in the lower part of the rev range ?

[Graham]

thats an incredible difference with a choke change PARTICULARLY without a drop in torque! did the torque peak move up the rev range much Graham? was there any major negatives to the 38 vs 36 in the lower part of the rev range ?

no peak torque was at same rpm, actually low speed torque was a bit better on the 38's, but that might of just been because on the 36's it was a bit rich low down as i didnt speed a lot of time on the jetting once i had the afr in the ball park higher up the rev range

[onecamohv]

Wow, nice info - thanks. thats really interesting that it didnt fall flat on its face lower down on the 38's. ive 36's in the 45's at the moment, il bring my 38's to to rollers when i get up and running to see if i experience the same thing.

it will be interesting to see what the big bore 3-piece will do with the 38's. id guess and say you'll drop power and torque for 85% of the curve and gain 2 -4 bhp at the top end

can you post the 36 v 38 graphs back to back please?

[Graham]

Wow, nice info - thanks. thats really interesting that it didnt fall flat on its face lower down on the 38's. ive 36's in the 45's at the moment, il bring my 38's to to rollers when i get up and running to see if i experience the same thing.

it will be interesting to see what the big bore 3-piece will do with the 38's. id guess and say you'll drop power and torque for 85% of the curve and gain 2 -4 bhp at the top end

can you post the 36 v 38 graphs back to back please?

the 36 v 38 will be part of a video coming very soon, but i might be able post a graph when i get a minute

earlier in the year i dyno'd an engine with 155bhp on the small bore, the 3 piece lost power and torque everywhere. this engines owner has given me a green light to run it up on some other exhaust so i will run it up on a 3 piece as well as an SRD manifold

[onecamohv]

the 36 v 38 will be part of a video coming very soon, but i might be able post a graph when i get a minute

earlier in the year i dyno'd an engine with 155bhp on the small bore, the 3 piece lost power and torque everywhere. this engines owner has given me a green light to run it up on some other exhaust so i will run it up on a 3 piece as well as an SRD manifold

[Disco808]

I've been running my 2l Pinto on Targa events for the last 4-5 years and have a similar setup to yours.

I'm just rebuilding a new bottom end for it at the moment and have upgraded to the Acrelite Forged Pistons and Farndon Forged Rods, which should give me plenty of scope in the future to add performance, if i decide to make some other upgrades (Maybe Splits)

Having said that for Targa's with the many stop starts and tight manoeuvers you need to keep the engine very tractable. I run an RL30 Lightening Rod Kent cam kit with 45mm Inlet and 38mm Exhaust valves (Single Collet for previously mentioned reasons), with a single 44 DCNF Downdraft weber. The engine has a compression ratio of 10.8:1 and It puts out around 160Bhp but more importantly has a really nice torque curve reaching peak torque at 4000 and then holding that all the way through to 5800.

Doing well on this style of event is all about Torque rather than top end power.

[Graham]

having spent an evening burning through fuel and swapping hot manifolds i can tell ya now on the RL31/175bhp engine sitting on my dyno, compared to a small bore Ashley 421, the 3 piece is again worse right through the rev range, and the engine spec still isnt high enough to benefit from the expensive SRD manifold

[onecamohv]

having spent an evening burning through fuel and swapping hot manifolds i can tell ya now on the RL31/175bhp engine sitting on my dyno, compared to a small bore Ashley 421, the 3 piece is again worse right through the rev range, and the engine spec still isnt high enough to benefit from the expensive SRD manifold

Thanks for the feedback Graham ! Worse by how much ? Only have a 3 piece at my disposal at the moment but IL make a custom one when I get time.
I always have this argument with the bigger is better guys, good to see the proof is in the pudding! What's the OD of the SRD ? Was it as poor ?

[Graham]

Thanks for the feedback Graham ! Worse by how much ? Only have a 3 piece at my disposal at the moment but IL make a custom one when I get time.
I always have this argument with the bigger is better guys, good to see the proof is in the pudding! What's the OD of the SRD ? Was it as poor ?

just buy cheap small bore ashley! time was short and it was very late to be running engines so i didnt spend too much time looking at numbers just the overlays, but judging by the graph about 3lbft everywhere, which would be about 4bhp at the top end of the rev range. The SRD has even bigger bore than the 3 piece, but much longer primaries, compared to the small bore it was better around 4000, rpm worse around 5000 and similar around 6800, but it did have a tendancy to dip around 6500, but to be honest its intended for higher spec engines.

[alladdin]

its always the "Ashley " small bore quoted - is the "sportex " brand similar or different ?

[Graham]

its always the "Ashley " small bore quoted - is the "sportex " brand similar or different ?

i think the small bore ashley im using is actually a sportex, but they are all copies of the origonal Janspeed manifold

[onecamohv]

hi Guys,
ordered alot of stuff off burton yesterday so i nearly have the majority of the stuff now.
one question however, they said the spraybars they had were not fit for purpose and have taken them off sale.
can they still be ordered from Ford? if so anyone have the part number? or somewhere else i can get a GOOD one from?

cheers!

[Dyno]

The one I had from Burton over the last years brake into 2 pieces after heavy work. Not good. Lucky they don't sell them anymore. I currently use standard Ford items, clean them as well as I can. You don't need bigger spray holes, you just need better oil compared with 30 years ago.

[Dyno]

i think the small bore ashley im using is actually a sportex, but they are all copies of the origonal Janspeed manifold

Almost all manifolds developed by Janspeed are working great. They had a dyno, they did research. Very clear to see.

Once you got a dyno, you can put your time and money into developing great stuff. 2 days later someone else will copy what you have discovered and can sell it a lot cheaper (they don't have to cover the development cost). You go financial down, the others up. Exact what happened with Janspeed and many others.

Indeed, all copies.

[onecamohv]

Almost all manifolds developed by Janspeed are working great. They had a dyno, they did research. Very clear to see.

Once you got a dyno, you can put your time and money into developing great stuff. 2 days later someone else will copy what you have discovered and can sell it a lot cheaper (they don't have to cover the development cost). You go financial down, the others up. Exact what happened with Janspeed and many others.

Indeed, all copies.

so true

[onecamohv]

The one I had from Burton over the last years brake into 2 pieces after heavy work. Not good. Lucky they don't sell them anymore. I currently use standard Ford items, clean them as well as I can. You don't need bigger spray holes, you just need better oil compared with 30 years ago.

not available new Dirk i suppose? il soak in spray gun cleaner and then blast some through at high pressure