Pinto oil pressure question

[RUSS]

Got a standard 2L pinto in my Mk1 Escort . When I start it from cold the oil pressure light stays on for 3-4 seconds accompanied by a rattling . Then the light goes out and it all quietens down . When warm or hot it is all good . Using a genuine Ford oil filter and valvoline 20/50 oil . Just done an 800 mile trip to the Lake District and back , used no oil and holds good oil pressure once it’s started , warm 55psi driving , 25psi on idle . Is there a non return valve anywhere that might be causing the issue ?

[Dyno]

There is one in the oil filter but if it is the correct filter it should be there. Person I don't like thick oil like 20/50

[katana]

Personally I don't like thick oil like 20/50

But that's what they were designed to use! Its an engine designed in the 50 / 60's and 20w/50 was about the 'trickiest' oil available being a multigrade!
Whilst you can run 'thinner' modern oils for power / economy benefits, it sounds like this particular engine's oil pump needs all the viscosity available
on cold start up. I'd be a bit wary of a 'Ford' gauge reading of 25psi - OEM gauges are notorious for under or over reading. So your readings
could be 10 - 15psi high which for idle is borderline insufficient IMO

[Dyno]

But that's what they were designed to use! Its an engine designed in the 50 / 60's and 20w/50 was about the 'trickiest' oil available being a multigrade!
Whilst you can run 'thinner' modern oils for power / economy benefits, it sounds like this particular engine's oil pump needs all the viscosity available
on cold start up. I'd be a bit wary of a 'Ford' gauge reading of 25psi - OEM gauges are notorious for under or over reading. So your readings
could be 10 - 15psi high which for idle is borderline insufficient IMO

That's where I don't agree. At the time they where build, there was nothing better. If you use 10W-60 it is a lot thinner at start up and is thicker in a warm engine. So better overall, no downsite. Specially the warm up is so much better. If people tell me it was designed for this oil I inform they should not put Radial tyres under the car, it was Diagonal those days. Just to show you what I want to say.

[Mkdu]

20/50 or 10/60 whatever.
The thing that comes to me, is the rattling you mention at startup.
I had that on a xflow, when some crank or rods bearings where too tired
Or you have a oil pump issue ?

[onecamohv]

That's where I don't agree. At the time they where build, there was nothing better. If you use 10W-60 it is a lot thinner at start up and is thicker in a warm engine. So better overall, no downsite. Specially the warm up is so much better. If people tell me it was designed for this oil I inform they should not put Radial tyres under the car, it was Diagonal those days. Just to show you what I want to say.

100% agree.

i hate that term 'it was designed for it in the 70's" that doesnt matter the slightest when you are working to 2022 tolerances and clearances of a blueprinted engine.

Sure, throw 20/50 into your unrebuilt standard boat anchor, but if you've build your engine to specific modern tolerances and had the machining done to suit a 20w oil is not going to get to the critical components fast enough in remotely cold weather.

a 10w60 high performance oil is the best all rounder in my personal opinion for our climate most of the time.

[Dyno]

20/50 or 10/60 whatever.
The thing that comes to me, is the rattling you mention at startup.
I had that on a xflow, when some crank or rods bearings where too tired
Or you have a oil pump issue ?

Noise is there only at start up, it means, it is turning without oil at the bearings little longer as he expect. Or the oil filter drains or something else like oil cooler is drained and need to be filled up.

[katana]

100% agree.

I hate that term 'it was designed for it in the 70's" that doesn't matter the slightest when you are working to 2022 tolerances and clearances of a blueprinted engine.
Sure, throw 20/50 into your rebuilt standard boat anchor, but if you've build your engine to specific modern tolerances and had the machining done to suit a 20w oil is
not going to get to the critical components fast enough in remotely cold weather. A 10w60 high performance oil is the best all rounder in my personal opinion for our
climate most of the time.

Isn't oil and lubrication systems in old cars divisive LOL! As far as we are aware, the OP says the engine in question is 'standard' ie. as it left the factory, stock and not tuned or blueprinted! As such bearing / pump clearances were sized to work with thicker oils, run at a given pressure and flow. Yes, those tolerances can be tightened to work with 10w/50, 10w/60 or even 5w/50 oils and work well - if the care is taken - to get the clearances better. As said, it's the initial start up where problem seems to occur, so pump suction seems lacking and (to me at least) would imply a worn pump possibly reinforced by (maybe) low pressure whilst running. A pinto cam has a 'long' oil path from cold but a good pump with tight clearances won't drain sufficiently that it takes much more than a second to get oil. I'd get a decent gauge on the oil line and confirm the pressure reading and work from that point, but I suspect the pump - what is the mileage on the engine and do you know its service history ie. any extended oil change intervals can hurt oil components?

[Graham]

100% agree.

i hate that term 'it was designed for it in the 70's" that doesnt matter the slightest when you are working to 2022 tolerances and clearances of a blueprinted engine.
but if you've build your engine to specific modern tolerances and had the machining done to suit a 20w oil is no
.

so are you saying your are running tighter than book clearances on your engine?

if an engine rattles on start up, it has oil supply issues or clearances too big

[Graham]

100% agree.

i hate that term 'it was designed for it in the 70's" that doesnt matter the slightest when you are working to 2022 tolerances and clearances of a blueprinted engine.
but if you've build your engine to specific modern tolerances and had the machining done to suit a 20w oil is no
.

so are you saying your are running tighter than book clearances on your engine?

if an engine rattles on start up, it has oil supply issues or clearances too big

[RUSS]

I bought the engine as an unknown but allegedly recently rebuilt but no paperwork to back this up . All looked clean inside when I took the head off to have a look . It does smoke on initial start up suggesting valve guide or stem oil seals worn . I was thinking this might account for the rattle on start up but would it account for the initial low pressure , only talking for seconds . I do have a new head recently done by CTM with an FR32 cam to fit but reluctant to do so if there is an issue with the bottom end . Would probably be best to strip down and have a look before wiping out a new cam .

[Dyno]

Isn't oil and lubrication systems in old cars divisive LOL! As far as we are aware, the OP says the engine in question is 'standard' ie. as it left the factory, stock and not tuned or blueprinted! As such bearing / pump clearances were sized to work with thicker oils, run at a given pressure and flow. Yes, those tolerances can be tightened to work with 10w/50, 10w/60 or even 5w/50 oils and work well - if the care is taken - to get the clearances better. As said, it's the initial start up where problem seems to occur, so pump suction seems lacking and (to me at least) would imply a worn pump possibly reinforced by (maybe) low pressure whilst running. A pinto cam has a 'long' oil path from cold but a good pump with tight clearances won't drain sufficiently that it takes much more than a second to get oil. I'd get a decent gauge on the oil line and confirm the pressure reading and work from that point, but I suspect the pump - what is the mileage on the engine and do you know its service history ie. any extended oil change intervals can hurt oil components?

Sorry but I feel this is a totally wrong conclusion. Possible these engines where "setup" round these old fashion oils like 20W-50. Point is today we got better oil as 20W-50. That's all I'm trying to explain. 10W-60 will be better cold and will be better when the engine is hot. So simple it is and we can keep talking for years about it, it is a fact. It is thinner when cold so the oil splash will be there a lot faster and once the engine comes to higher working temperatures it will still be thicker and give more protection. Sadly 10W-60 is not cheap. BTW, we don't make the bearing clearance smaller in stressed engines, we make them bigger and again that's where 10W-60 is still the winner. Seems like many forget 10W-60 is THICKER as 20W-50. At start up it is not the bearing which are the problem, it is oil splash that should come in as soon as possible and again 10W-60 is the winner compared to 20W-50.

[katana]

As I said - Divisive! You can put whatever you like in the sump - won't make a blind bit of difference if the sump is mildly shagged out! I did not say smaller clearances, I said tighten ie. reduce the permissible 'range of clearance' - that will improve oil pressure consistency. A racing / high output engine 'may' pick up a few hp with larger clearances but longevity will suffer, recommended clearances will help an engine last far longer. And sorry, if you are relying on 'splash lube' effects, I think that boat sailed long ago when caged needle rollers and ball bearings featured heavily in rotating assemblies! Nothing wrong with them btw but shell bearings proved to be better with pressurised lube systems. I've nothing against modern oils - every thing has its place - my RS2000 Pinto used 20w/50, it now has a Zetec and uses 5w/30 but I wouldn't use 0w/20 no matter how hard you tell me it is superior!

[Graham]

I bought the engine as an unknown but allegedly recently rebuilt but no paperwork to back this up . All looked clean inside when I took the head off to have a look . It does smoke on initial start up suggesting valve guide or stem oil seals worn . I was thinking this might account for the rattle on start up but would it account for the initial low pressure , only talking for seconds . I do have a new head recently done by CTM with an FR32 cam to fit but reluctant to do so if there is an issue with the bottom end . Would probably be best to strip down and have a look before wiping out a new cam .

if it rattles before oil pressure comes up, for 100% it will have worn crank bearings. a normal bearing clearance simply isnt big enough to cause a knock, oil pressure or no oil pressure

[onecamohv]

so are you saying your are running tighter than book clearances on your engine?

if an engine rattles on start up, it has oil supply issues or clearances too big

no never said tighter !

i said modern tolerances - ie less scatter of specs from one extreme end of the permissible tolerance to another that would have come from the factory, and less of a tolerance stack that could add up.

i guess it will always be a matter of opinion, but my conclusion is the same as Dirks, unless the engine is on its death bed and needs a thick oil from startup to take up wild clearances, there is no circumstance that a 10w60 high performance oil isnt better than an old 20w50.

having said all that, there have been high performance pintos running 20w50 for years without a problem - we are really just splitting hairs but thats what car forums are for

[Dyno]

As I said - Divisive! You can put whatever you like in the sump - won't make a blind bit of difference if the sump is mildly shagged out! I did not say smaller clearances, I said tighten ie. reduce the permissible 'range of clearance' - that will improve oil pressure consistency. A racing / high output engine 'may' pick up a few hp with larger clearances but longevity will suffer, recommended clearances will help an engine last far longer. And sorry, if you are relying on 'splash lube' effects, I think that boat sailed long ago when caged needle rollers and ball bearings featured heavily in rotating assemblies! Nothing wrong with them btw but shell bearings proved to be better with pressurised lube systems. I've nothing against modern oils - every thing has its place - my RS2000 Pinto used 20w/50, it now has a Zetec and uses 5w/30 but I wouldn't use 0w/20 no matter how hard you tell me it is superior!

Sorry, not willing to argue but pistons, bores and even in block camshafts still relay on splash lubrication. No way out. I was not talking about crankshaft bearings or any other part that receive the oil direct by an oil gallery. With thick oil it takes ages before it reach the piston pin and bores. Ask Honda about the problems they had in the first generation S2000 and you know what splash lubrication means.

[katana]

Well it seems the majority of manufacturers are trying to minimise splash lubrication with fitted windage trays and crank scrapers. Oil once it comes out of the bearing will get flung all around the place and however infinitesimal, the oil mist it causes generates drag hence why the OEM's try to minimise it. The OEM's use pressurised oil far more effectively than you seem to imagine - piston underside oil cooling jets in the block or from the rods will not only cool but lube the small end and piston bores, in block cams and followers are all pressurised oil - when it fails, everything is generally toast! Pinto's are notorious for killing cams due to spray bar failings and you don't get more splash lube than that!
Let's just agree to disagree as we obviously have polar opposite opinions!

[Graham]

Irrespective of all the above arguments, if it knocks on start up then it has worn bearings/ crank pins!

[katana]

Irrespective of all the above arguments, if it knocks on start up then it has worn bearings/ crank pins!

The voice of sanity - well probably LOL!

[Dyno]

Well it seems the majority of manufacturers are trying to minimise splash lubrication with fitted windage trays and crank scrapers. Oil once it comes out of the bearing will get flung all around the place and however infinitesimal, the oil mist it causes generates drag hence why the OEM's try to minimise it. The OEM's use pressurised oil far more effectively than you seem to imagine - piston underside oil cooling jets in the block or from the rods will not only cool but lube the small end and piston bores, in block cams and followers are all pressurised oil - when it fails, everything is generally toast! Pinto's are notorious for killing cams due to spray bar failings and you don't get more splash lube than that!
Let's just agree to disagree as we obviously have polar opposite opinions!

As you say, they add oil jets for more oil splash to the top of the piston. The trays and scrapers are there to "catch" the oil coming back from top and trying to get it back into the sump after it has done what it had to do. Little to disagree, thin oil when cold does its work faster and when you can keep it thicker warm, it will protect better. Whatever you try, 10W-60 will always win over 20W-50. Not difficult to understand