Turbo Xflow ... worth it?

[Jack1995]

Fair point

[caprimentle]

the thing is, going full mappable injection and turbo just to get 150 bhp from a worn x/f makes no sense to me whichever way i look at it ?

fun lol

[Jack1995]

Why not? I want a turbo Xflow and injection will run it better than carbs? What's wrong with that ? Its having a full rebuild its not going to be that worn is it?

[bytesandbolts]

Okay I'll ask someone good with electrics (y)

I can help you out with the Megasquirt. Done it on my Xflow turbo

[Jack1995]

Yeah? That would be great. What megasquirt do you run? And what bodies?

[bytesandbolts]

Sure anytime.
I soldered together an MS3 bought from the states. Single point injection setup with a single 48mm Jenvey TB with one 770cc injector. However I would suggest the 2 injector variant over the 1 injector, as you you could run two smaller high-impedance injectors. I adapted the TB to fit on a standard carb manifold. I'm in the process of swapping out my current intake for a multi point setup though.. depending on your fabricating skills, might just be best to start with that if you do go down the EFI route.

[Jack1995]

I can help you out with the Megasquirt. Done it on my Xflow turbo

That would be great! What megasquirt you using? And what bodies?

[caprimentle]

to be fair mate I build a turbo pinto with an r5 turbo carb and t25 turbo and she drove like a peach, over 30 mpg in a heavy Sierra, it didn't bog down or flood, drove lovely. only thing I couldn't achieve was a 900 rpm idle closest I could get was 1200 but hardly a problem. probably was due to the fact I had it on a 2 litre pinto so was pulling in so much air at idle the idle jet just couldn't cope compared to the 1400cc Renault engines. on a 1600 crossflow it will perform outstandingly and the simplicity and reliability of it will make you love it even more. up to you but walk before you can run.

[Jack1995]

Sure anytime.
I soldered together an MS3 bought from the states. Single point injection setup with a single 48mm Jenvey TB with one 770cc injector. However I would suggest the 2 injector variant over the 1 injector, as you you could run two smaller high-impedance injectors. I adapted the TB to fit on a standard carb manifold. I'm in the process of swapping out my current intake for a multi point setup though.. depending on your fabricating skills, might just be best to start with that if you do go down the EFI route.

How much did that all cost you roughly?

[bytesandbolts]

to be fair mate I build a turbo pinto with an r5 turbo carb and t25 turbo and she drove like a peach, over 30 mpg in a heavy Sierra, it didn't bog down or flood, drove lovely. only thing I couldn't achieve was a 900 rpm idle closest I could get was 1200 but hardly a problem. probably was due to the fact I had it on a 2 litre pinto so was pulling in so much air at idle the idle jet just couldn't cope compared to the 1400cc Renault engines. on a 1600 crossflow it will perform outstandingly and the simplicity and reliability of it will make you love it even more. up to you but walk before you can run.

Agreed. Whilst EFI is awesome, you are more than doubling the amount of effort required for the build. Not only are you tackling the dark art of forced induction, you're adding the complexity of installing a very customised injection setup. Be prepared for a lot of fabricating one off parts.

[Jack1995]

to be fair mate I build a turbo pinto with an r5 turbo carb and t25 turbo and she drove like a peach, over 30 mpg in a heavy Sierra, it didn't bog down or flood, drove lovely. only thing I couldn't achieve was a 900 rpm idle closest I could get was 1200 but hardly a problem. probably was due to the fact I had it on a 2 litre pinto so was pulling in so much air at idle the idle jet just couldn't cope compared to the 1400cc Renault engines. on a 1600 crossflow it will perform outstandingly and the simplicity and reliability of it will make you love it even more. up to you but walk before you can run.

Okay that's a bit better understanding for me talking to someone who's actually done it so it should work okay just thinking maybe I could get better performance results with an ecu but we'll see thanks again

[bytesandbolts]

How much did that all cost you roughly?

Around £1000, took me => 2 years to gain the confidence that I could do it. Built as much as I could inhouse to save on the cost. It wasn't a smooth ride but got there in the end.

The one thing I regret not investing in though is forged pistons!! Just get them...

[Jack1995]

Agreed. Whilst EFI is awesome, you are more than doubling the amount of effort required for the build. Not only are you tackling the dark art of forced induction, you're adding the complexity of installing a very customised injection setup. Be prepared for a lot of fabricating one off parts.

Ah well then if it really doesn't make that much of a difference probably best to stay with carb for now

[Jack1995]

Around £1000, took me => 2 years to gain the confidence I could do it. Built as much as I could inhouse to save on the cost. It wasn't a smooth ride but got there in the end.

The one thing I regret not investing in though is forged pistons!! Just get them...

Yeah forged pistons are definitely going in just peace of mind mostly

[bytesandbolts]

Ah well then if it really doesn't make that much of a difference probably best to stay with carb for now

See how long it takes you for the build. I will probably be selling my old turbo parts early next year to make room for the new setup. :P

[bytesandbolts]

Yeah forged pistons are definitely going in just peace of mind mostly

As I have already mentioned, my engine conked out last month with a blown piston.. Looking back I wish I went forged to begin with.

[Jack1995]

Well its fully stripped now just waiting for crank to come . mid saving for forged pistons now and heads nearly done so take me till after Christmas to get the bits. If its done before I can always alter if your bits suit better

[caprimentle]

i've done both turbo pinto on carb and turbo pinto on efi. now given that the pinto already came with an efi manifold and the wiring loom is rather simple to set up. it still took a lot more effort compared to the carb set up. carb set up was done in about 2 weeks worth of evenings, so about 2 full days, and that includes everything including making manifold and down pipe, fitting intercooler etc etc, real easy to do. your going well in at the deep end trying to go efi. you don't get efi manifolds, you don't get crossflow efi looms, it's doubtful your'll get an efi fuel tank so will have to either fit a swirl pot, in tank swirl pot, in tank pump or custom tank. although it was quite an improvement when I went efi power wise, that was mostly because the carb was too small really for a 2litre and the efi manifold breathed much better but you are only a 1.6 with fairly small ports so carb restriction won't be as much of an issue, but then all that did was blow my pistons up so had to fit a forged lump. now my original reliable 200 quid turbo pinto on a carb has become an electrically complicated expensive efi forged pinto that is ten times my original cost and far more complex.

[Jack1995]

i've done both turbo pinto on carb and turbo pinto on efi. now given that the pinto already came with an efi manifold and the wiring loom is rather simple to set up. it still took a lot more effort compared to the carb set up. carb set up was done in about 2 weeks worth of evenings, so about 2 full days, and that includes everything including making manifold and down pipe, fitting intercooler etc etc, real easy to do. your going well in at the deep end trying to go efi. you don't get efi manifolds, you don't get crossflow efi looms, it's doubtful your'll get an efi fuel tank so will have to either fit a swirl pot, in tank swirl pot, in tank pump or custom tank. although it was quite an improvement when I went efi power wise, that was mostly because the carb was too small really for a 2litre and the efi manifold breathed much better but you are only a 1.6 with fairly small ports so carb restriction won't be as much of an issue, but then all that did was blow my pistons up so had to fit a forged lump. now my original reliable 200 quid turbo pinto on a carb has become an electrically complicated expensive efi forged pinto that is ten times my original cost and far more complex.

There's my answer then thanks for clearing that up (y)

[Jack1995]

Now I'm getting forged pistons what can I realisticly look at boosting safely? And what compression rate should I be looking for?

[caprimentle]

keep it around 9-1, any higher and things get hotter and more prone to det, you could go lower but no point imo unless you run a big turbo with plenty of boost, as long as fueling remains good, your block will prob go before your pistons now, as to how much a crossflow block can take I couldn't tell you.

[bytesandbolts]

Just so it's out there. For my next iteration of a turbo'd xflow I will be chasing 250bhp from my 1.3 (and not a horse more). Will make for a fast road car whilst still retaining the original engine.

[Jack1995]

9-1 cr . how much psi will be safe then?

[Jack1995]

Just so it's out there. For my next iteration of a turbo'd xflow I will be chasing 250bhp from my 1.3 (and not a horse more). Will make for a fast road car whilst still retaining the original engine.

How do you plan on managing that?

[caprimentle]

9-1 cr . how much psi will be safe then?

Depends what the turbo is capable off and at what point things are such a restriction no more boost pressure can be made, I found the limit of the r5 carb on my engine was about 18 psi. I just couldn't really get any more psi past the carb.

[Jack1995]

Fair enough that's enough for me haha

[Jack1995]

Need a Renault 5 carb if anyone knows for anything(y)

[Jack1995]

Depends what the turbo is capable off and at what point things are such a restriction no more boost pressure can be made, I found the limit of the r5 carb on my engine was about 18 psi. I just couldn't really get any more psi past the carb.

Will it be okay on a weber? Or do I need a r5?

[caprimentle]

depends on the weber. what one you got in mind?

[Jack1995]

40?or would I be better off with a 45?

[caprimentle]

twins or single? lotus esprits used twin 45's, weber sell a kit to convert a weber to a sealed unit to work with boost pressure, a single 40 would be a nice carb boosted I feel.

[Jack1995]

Yeah? I got a brand new 40 see just seeing if I could use it like

[caprimentle]

yeah get yourself a lynx manifold and find a turbo seal kit for it and give it a go.

[caprimentle]

onyd has exceptional experience with turboing on carbs, hopefully he'll be along soon to offer his advice on using a dcoe boosted.

[Graham]

twins or single? lotus esprits used twin 45's, weber sell a kit to convert a weber to a sealed unit to work with boost pressure, a single 40 would be a nice carb boosted I feel.

esprits used 45's, turbo esprits used 40's, with a turbo forcing air through the carb you do not need anything as big as in n/a.

[Dyno]

Theoretical, any carburetor can be turbo charged but in practice, whole other story. My advice, stick with the R5 carb if you don't play with carbs day in day out. Solex did the job for you. It will not be so restrictive. Power will be OK to start with.

Yes, a set of twin Webers can make (little) more power but don't expect it to be easy. For very low boost it will work with a rich jetting on top and some so called "booster rings". But I found out it only work for real low boost. It just can't cope with the never ending ask for more fuel without an increase in air flow (air only get denser and carb can't see it). I've developed some parts to get round it. More like cheating the carburetor with some valves when boost comes in. Does work to a degree and is more or less what Solex does mechanical. But on twin carbs it will make it not less complex as fuel injection. Single carb is the way to go. R5 is your cake and just eat it. Twin carbs only needed on full blown engines but here I would suggest fuel injection. For a nice cheap road engine, single carbs is all what is needed.

I had very good results using a DMTL and had this one fooled by electric valves and boost switches. I've explained before.

[Jack1995]

Theoretical, any carburetor can be turbo charged but in practice, whole other story. My advice, stick with the R5 carb if you don't play with carbs day in day out. Solex did the job for you. It will not be so restrictive. Power will be OK to start with.

Yes, a set of twin Webers can make (little) more power but don't expect it to be easy. For very low boost it will work with a rich jetting on top and some so called "booster rings". But I found out it only work for real low boost. It just can't cope with the never ending ask for more fuel without an increase in air flow (air only get denser and carb can't see it). I've developed some parts to get round it. More like cheating the carburetor with some valves when boost comes in. Does work to a degree and is more or less what Solex does mechanical. But on twin carbs it will make it not less complex as fuel injection. Single carb is the way to go. R5 is your cake and just eat it. Twin carbs only needed on full blown engines but here I would suggest fuel injection. For a nice cheap road engine, single carbs is all what is needed.

I had very good results using a DMTL and had this one fooled by electric valves and boost switches. I've explained before.

Okay mate no problem if its a ball ache I'll have to try find an r5 carb. Thanks both

[looneytune]

Yeah i found 18 psi to be the limit with the reno 5 carb on my pinto. But on 10 psi, mine makes 152 @ the wheels

[caprimentle]

Yeah i found 18 psi to be the limit with the reno 5 carb on my pinto. But on 10 psi, mine makes 152 @ the wheels

never did rolling road mine, but yours and my setups were both exactly the same, only difference was you was 8.2-1 and mine was 9.2-1. I do miss that set up in a way.

[caprimentle]

Yeah i found 18 psi to be the limit with the reno 5 carb on my pinto. But on 10 psi, mine makes 152 @ the wheels

never did rolling road mine, but yours and my setups were both exactly the same, only difference was you was 8.2-1 and mine was 9.2-1. I do miss that set up in a way.