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Thread: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

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    Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Been collecting bits ready to build a replacement engine for my escort. Looking to build a nice engine with lots of low down torque. I could have got my die grinder and stones out and started porting the head, but been there done that, not the most enjoyable jobs.

    So working in a machine shop with a nice 5 axis cnc miller which I program day in day out, I thought I'd give it a go and cnc port the head. Never done any engine or head machining myself, but how hard can it be


    So my first task was to get a 3d model of a standard pinto head. Time for some reverse engineering, onto the cmm machine



    This gave me whats call a points cloud, It may look just like a loud of dot, but it has meaning



    then after a fair few hours of work I ended up with this





    After I had it all modeled I did an inspection report on the cylinder head to check how accurate my modeling was. All surface's are within about 0.25mm, so pritty good when working from a rough casting. I also check the volume of the combustion chamber on the 3D model, it was 47.7cc which I think is about right for a standard head.


    Next job it to start modeling the new port and combustion chamber shapes.

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Thats really great stuff.

    Have you got a fluid dynamics program to check flow through the port? Ive got a copy of SW cosmos but haven't had much chance to play with it.

    Thread subscribed!

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Thats some great work, be nice if you could do zetec and share the file for SW haha

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Done a bit of work on the new port shapes today. I'm also thinking of raising the inlet port be about 4-5mm and adding some filler, but still undecided. Main reason so I can machining out the injector cut out.

    And after looking at some pictures of "CNC Heads" port shapes. I would guess that there inlet port have been open up to about 40-41mm diameter, I can't see how they would get every head/port to clean up from the rough casting. Because I'm building this engine for as much torque as possible I'm even considering reducing the port diameter as much as possible while still raising them.

    I even did a quick sketch on fitting 48mm inlet valves and 38mm exhaust valves, and I think it's possible with just changing the valve angle's, which on the CNC I plan on using is almost as easy as keeping them in the same place. Think I might try getting me hand on a few pinto heads.

    Anyone got any suggestions for what 48mm valves I could use

    I have been thinking about trying some CFD software, any idea what I can use that’s free. But I think the first head I machine is just going to be machined to what I think looks good

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Some great work done there...the port roof is only about 5-6mm thick so be careful or you will break through..
    How much did you have to move the valve to fit 48 mm valves? i am struggling to fit 46/37.5 i will have to move valve about 1.2 mm...
    First thing i did was cut a pinto head in half so i could see what was available to machine...

    keep us posted cheers mark

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    I didn’t actually move the valves, I rotated it around the end of the valve, meaning the ball stud can stop in the same place. Rotating the valve by 0.5 deg, moved the head by about 0.6mm. So by rotating both inlet and exhaust away from each other I was gain about 1mm between the heads, allowing the inlet to increase by 2mm in diameter. I then also tried moving then away from each other by 0.25mm. This then allowed another 1mm increase on the inlet diameter.

    As I said, it was only a quick sketch which I never saved, but I’m sure it would be possible.

    First things first thou. I’m going to try machining a head, and see how long it takes and it’s it all goes to plan.

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Offset and valve angles can be changed to fit larger valves.

    I experimented with fitting some 47mm inlet valves with 38.1 exhaust valves a few years back.

    Knuts old 2.4 engine ran 48mm inlets with 40mm exhaust vales using offset exhausts.

    See post - http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=146753

    You will also need to look at bore sizes if you start to go this way.

    Here are some pics

    Click image for larger version Name:	48mm inlet.jpg Views:	1243 Size:	61.0 KB ID:	62847Click image for larger version Name:	48mm inlet2.jpg Views:	1245 Size:	60.1 KB ID:	62848

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Those are some big valves in that head 48in & 40ex

    I modeled up some valves today, these are 48 inlet and 38 exhaust. I rotated them around the rocker end of the valve by 0.5 deg and they fit with ease. There is a 1.2mm gap between the valves, so you could get the 40mm exhaust valves in. But I'm more thinking about 50mm inlet valves and 38 exhuast. Anyone got and 50mm valves?

    I've also show a 93mm bore on the model.


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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Fascinating - keep this updated - I have subbed
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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Quote Originally Posted by clint View Post
    fascinating - keep this updated - i have subbed
    x 2

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    There are plenty of places that will make you custom valves in any size you want.

    If you are after something on the market, look at VW or Volvo.(type 3/4 B21 engines)
    Both have great aftermarket support, with stainless valves available in 46/48/50 mm having 8mm stems with lengths from 110-112mm

    I used oversize mitsubishi 4g54 valves in mine.

    Shaun

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Fascinating stuff, looking forward to seeing this develop!
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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Think I'm going a bit over the top, I did the inlet manifold today



    And I must say, it's going to need some work to get the ports matched. I can't believe how bad it is, Some areas have almost a 4mm mis-match.

    I can understand manufactures having trouble matching the ports to the head, with the head being a casting, but there shouldn't be any issue with getting them matched to the carbs as these are machined items.

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Beware with 1,2 mm between the valves. I just had a cylinderhead using 38 exhaust and 45,5 inlet. Valves where touching at higher RPM. You must check for play at TDC with both valves open.

    If you can make a 3D of a complete Pinto head, incl. new ports (like downdraught) we can have it cast in alloy. Modern casting company's only need 3D pictures for casting. No longer models. If I could make 3D drawings, my head would have been cast already. But I'm to old, I learned making pictures with pencil at school. Very stupid today, of no use anymore.

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    I'm ashamed to call myself a cnc machinist now i wish i had a 5 axis machine to play with in work!

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Modeled up some new ports and this is what I've got so far. I thinking I'm going to use filler on the port floor, with this being an injection head I want to machine the injection cut out of the roof. I'm probably just going to slot the mouting holes on the inlet to allow me to raise it 3-4mm.




    These are some cross sections red orginal port shape, green my new port shape





    Somthing else I've modeled up is the cam centre line so I cam measure the valve tip to the cam centre. Anyone know if this 32.5mm dimension is correct


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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    The measurement will differ depending on valve length and depth of valve seat.

    Shaun

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    love the cad stuff, interesting to see all that

    are you not tempted to machine one from a solid block of billet? obviously it would cost a bit but you could make the the port shapes however you wanted, or as onyd said send the files to a foundry and have them make a cast one. if you did a batch you could probably cover your own costs if not make a few quid.. either way looking forward to seeing how you get on

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Quote Originally Posted by escortinadriver View Post
    The measurement will differ depending on valve length and depth of valve seat.

    Shaun
    I know this size will change due to valve length and seat depth, but what should it be so the rocker geometry is correct. What I have drawn is sizes taken from a standard un-touched head. So I think this is what Ford designed it to be.

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Mac, I don't have any standard head/valves here at the moment however I'm sure the tools you are using to measure are going to be more accurate than mine. I used a combination of verniers, levels and improvised tooling. We offset the exhaust valve using bronze inserts, filled the rocker posts with braze and retapped. Didn't change the valve angles as we didn't have access to the right equipment.
    Shaun

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Been doing a bit more work ready for machining, Here's some pics on the final model I will be using.




    I've now moved onto creating the cutter paths, unfortunately the 5 aixs machine I'll be using isn't a simultaneous 5 axis, only positional 5 axis. This means I can't do the fancy cutter paths you see in videos of the part swinging around while machining. This machine will move the head to a set angle then machine what ever I program. This isn't perfect, but will do just as good as a job, just take a bit longer. The green line is the centre of the cutter. On the combustion chamber i'll be using a 8mm ballnose and on the ports it will be a 10mm ballnose.





    You will notice on the above picture the brown area around the valve seat. I have added this surface so the cutter wont touch the valve seat, leaving material to be cut later with a valve seat cutter.




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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Clever stuff

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    I've been quite busy on the head. I shot blasted the bottom of the port and ground a big chamfer on the inlet face to try and help lock the filler in. I've figured if the filler is bigger towards the outside it isn't going to get sucked in to the engine if it comes loose, unless it starts to break up. Which if it does, you've never going to stop it moving.



    This in with the filler (JB Weld)



    and after 24 hours



    Been in to work yesterday to do the machining on my cylinder head. I got hold of a spare head so I had 2 hits at getting it right. 1 head is an injection & unleaded, the other no injection. I had used the injection head to create my model from knowing these are better to start with anyway, but when I cam to machine the no injection head, I didn't quite realise how different the inlet ports are. On the no injection head, the port just after the short radius is about 4-5mm lower compared to the injection head. I'll put up so cross sections when I get chance.

    My first job on the machine was to ream the guides ready for the new guides



    Then machining the combustion cambers





    Then the ports through the combustion camber



    Then the inlet ports from the side of the head



    This is all I got done today, so I've still got the exhuast port to do from the side face, then fit the valve guides,ream to size and cut valve seat. I'll post some pic later of what I've got so far

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Fantastic work...

    Shaun.

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    great progress

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    love this thread its awesome really enjoying this keep up the good work

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    I've now finished machining the ports and I'm pretty happy with the results. I've got about a 0.2mm mis-match between cutter paths from the face to the side. Also there was a couple of little areas that havn't cleaned up on the exhuast ports. I've dressed all these areas and I've now got some nice smooth ports. If I was to machine another head I think it would take around 6 hours total, that included fitting the new valve guides.

    This is what I've finish up with





    Next job is to size the valve guides and recut the seats.

    Then onto the inlet manifold, I'm going to offset bush the 2 end mounting holes to move the manifold up and slot the other holes.

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Be nice to get this flow tested, I think you may have a queue of customers
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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    shotgun being first in the queue

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Impressive work. How far do you think you would be now with the die grinder and stones in 6 hrs

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    looks good, but im not sure about the shape of the short turn though, best flow comes with a flatter shape at the bottom

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Looking very good, how did I miss this thread

    What valve sizes did you end up using and are the guide centres std or moved, I would recommend moving the exhaust valve 0.5mm to away from the inlet and leave the guide angles std, that way the exhaust port is now a little straighter and it makes room for a larger inlet without upsetting the valve tip position

    Here are some of the ingredients for an ultimate iron pinto head for a 2.0 to 2.1 rally/race engine:

    The ideal minimum port CSA for a 2.0 and 2.1 pinto is the equivalent area of a 36mm to 37mm ID maximum using a 46.5mm inlet valve, any larger minimum port CSA and the mid range torque will drop like a stone, the reason is that you loose air speed and cylinder ramming when using too large of a port

    What you want ideally is to use a D shape port with a near flat bottom, widened by 3mm each side of the port at the manifold entry and around 6mm higher, with the floor maximum filled, this creates the best possible lead up to the short turn, the minimum port CSA should be close to the manifold flange just inside the port, which is a very brief minimum CSA and then the port getting steadily larger after this point and also getting larger up into the inlet manifold, this creates what looks like a proper Venturi shape which adds a Lot of air speed to the port, it increases the mid to high rpm power very noticeably and also the low end throttle response is also much improved (I have dyno graphs to prove this which I am happy to share privately)

    The exhaust ports are a little different, they have a venturi shape around the valve seat area and from then on the port CSA should ideally get steadily larger ending up at the manifold flange with a CSA that is approximately raised 3mm and widened 3mm towards the front of the engine

    Over all the port shapes you are using look very good and need only minor alterations, as Graham said a wide flat bottom on the short turn flows better, when looking into the port from the manifold end it would look like a D shape, flat at the bottom next to the valve, but not removing any material from the centre bottom of the short turn radius you are using, just making it wider if that makes sense

    I would be very happy to work with you developing a one of a kind port shapes that flow LOTS of air and also have high port velocity, I can discuss this is much more specific detail privately and send pics

    This is a great project, top work
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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    About the valve tip length from cam centre, the best thing to do is to use the same tip height as with std 2.0 valves as you have measured, all of the cams from Kent, Piper, Burton etc give the best valve lift and rocker geometry + valve timing when you use the same tip length as a pair of std valves have, the only cams that need to use longer valves in the UK are Newman cams, but they do not have enough valve lift for my liking

    The problem with larger valves is that almost all of the inlet valves are made too long, even if you machine the seats barely into the head the valve tip length is too close to the cam and you loose a lot of valve lift, most oversize exhaust valves are fine with only a few of them being too long

    The correct valve length for 46mm inlets is 110.6mm long, and the 110.5mm long for a 38.1mm exhaust both using a 1.27mm valve margin (included in the total lengths I stated) that length will give you the same valve lift as a std head with std valves, this is the bench mark to use and any longer is not suitable for use with the vast majority of cams available

    I should also point out that there is no need to use anything larger than a 37mm exhaust valve, I prefer 45.7 to 46.5 and 36.5mm valves or 37mm maximum, I would only ever want to use a 38mm exhaust valve out of necessity on a 2.3 or 2.4 engine, but 2.1 can use 36.5 to 37mm with no trouble at all, the exhaust ports with valves that size will flow enough air for well over 200bhp

    The pinto head suffers from lack of inlet flow AND velocity, the std inlet ports are much too large around 38mm diameter and would need to be used with massive inlet valves to make the port flow enough air to raise the port velocity, as stated if the port is too large the velocity will be low and cylinder ramming will be greatly reduced vs using an optimum velocity with a smaller minimum CSA

    This is a pretty good formula to use when selecting the optimum valve size VS bore diameter

    51% of bore diameter for inlet and 40% for exhaust, with a std bore that equals 46.3mm inlet and 36.3mm exhaust, taken from David Vizards newest porting book
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    You have access to some very nice kit ... great thread and keep the updates flowing ..... lol flowing get it

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Got all my valve seats cut today, exhaust were just a slight recut as I'm running standard valves, but inlet need sinking a bit due to the 45.5mm valves. I did a quick build with 2 valve to check valve lift. On the exhaust I'm down about 0.25mm and the inlet is down about 0.5mm. So I know that this is due to the valve in affect now being to long, but is there anything I can do to get the correct lift back. I've got burton stainless inlets and standard exhuast, can these be shortened or is modifying the rockers an option.

    As mentioned earlier in this thread by escortinadriver I got hold of a Volvo B21 inlet valve. Standard one's are 44mm diameter and 110.5mm long 8mm stem, the keepers are also the same as the pinto. So basically they are a perfect fit for the pinto. Only difference I can see is the keeper grooves are about 1.5mm closer to the tip, I built one up and the rocker arm still clears the spring collar, but only just. You just end up with a long spring installation height will increase buy 1.5mm, which I think is ideal as most kent valve springs call for a longer installation by about this much.

    So with this in mind and comparing them to the 44.5mm pinto valves with wasted stem, but too long. Which would you choose for a budget build road engine, bigger & better shaped valve, but loose valve lift or standard 44mm volvo valve which should give you correct lift

    Pinto valve vs volvo B21 valve


  38. #36
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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    So I know that this is due to the valve in affect now being to long, but is there anything I can do to get the correct lift back.
    if you shorten the valves you can get it back, the limit being the thickness of the stellite tip on the valve

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Just been trying to work out my comp ratio, and my head was spinning, so I put it all down on the spreadsheet, and I've now got a nice calculator for compression ratio and engine cc. Please feel free to use, enter the info in the green cells and results will be in the red

    pinto compression ratio calculator.xls

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Done a bit more machining on my engine today.

    First skimmed the block to get the piston 0.2 proud of the face



    Then skimming the head to get the compression up to about 10.4:1



    Think I've got eveything machined now ready for the build. Clocks ticking Classic Ford show is getting closer and closer.

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    Did you finish it for CF show? Have you been on the dyno yet?

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    Re: Pinto 3D model of cylinder head

    kind of, but didn't make it to classic ford in the escort

    It's all up and running but when I tried to book it in for a rolling road tune. they all said 3-4 week wait. It's running very lean so didn't want to risk driving it down the motorway. But on the plus side it does run really really smooth. I can go and turn the key and it will tickover at 500rpm, which with a very light flywheel and twin 45's it pritty dam good.

    Couple of weeks and I should have it sorted, just replumbing my oil cooler now ive got some extra time, then off the the rollers.

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