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Thread: pinto turbo management ideas

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    pinto turbo management ideas

    Hi was wondering about management for a turboed pinto what coices do I have and what sort of mo ey am I going to need to buy a management system for the car cheers
    Also can I run a turbo pinto on std ecu and management on very low boost just to drive it to the shop to get set up or will it need to get trailed to there cheers

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    I have megajolt on my carb setup. Are you acquainted with megasquirt?

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    If your using an EFI Manifold then Cosworth Management is the way to go
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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Yep im using efi on my pinto and sorry to ask a stupid question but what will I need from the cosworth cheers for your quick replys

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Any ECU so an old L1 cost around £50 will do - standard cossie chip will run the car - loom - dizzy - throttle body - std injectors - then all sensors

    Your need to modify the water and air temp bosses to fit the cossie ones

    Costs:

    ECU - £50 L1 or £100 L6
    Loom - £70
    Dizzy - £50
    All Std Sensors - £70
    Throttle Body - £60
    Ignition Amp - £20
    Coil - £10
    Std Injectors £50
    4 tooth wheel for TDC sensor pickup £18

    I can supply all the above if you get stuck
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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    And this is using what spec I want to use this
    Cossie pistons, rods and rings upgraded big and small end bearings , manifold (not sure what one yet probably custom) t3 turbo , cossie intercooler , injectors (not sure what ones to go for any advise) oil spray bar from cossie think its the 2wd one , uprated fuel pump and all appropriate hoses and maybe a cam after am I missing anything cheers

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Lots of ways to do it.
    Mine at the moment runs on the standard EECiv ecu fine for 7 to 10 psi.
    Or as said the cossie ecu. I have just got most of the bit to convert. I'm modding a YB inlet to fit the pinto, no need to do it but lookd better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Clint View Post
    4 tooth wheel for TDC sensor pickup £18
    Is this for the pinto pulley?

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    So rob yours is running on std ecu from the sierra what spec is your pinto turbo and what it like to drive running on std gear

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Standard efi pinto with a T3 2wd turbo on. About 160bhp at the wheels. There is plenty on info on the site about turboing the pinto, have a search.
    There is a downside to fitting YB rods and pistons in the pinto. The CR ends up low. So the head needs machining to raise it up. But so have ran it with the lower CR ok.

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Oh what does that require then a larger gasket or something and what parts to get a pinto to over 200 hp maybe 250

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by johN. View Post
    Oh what does that require then a larger gasket or something and what parts to get a pinto to over 200 hp maybe 250

    I reckon another cam and 8 more valves
    Lol

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Surly making a pinto quick has gotta be cheaper thab getting a yb there

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by johN. View Post
    Surly making a pinto quick has gotta be cheaper thab getting a yb there
    Cheaper yes, but if you can do it and you want to take resale value into account then no.
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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Thats good then because my sierra has sentimental value and was a gift so even if I won the euro millions id still have it

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by johN. View Post
    Thats good then because my sierra has sentimental value and was a gift so even if I won the euro millions id still have it
    There the best cars

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by mk1matt View Post
    There the best cars
    you say that but they also the ones that take more money i probably could of had a real cossie but i got the sierra when i was quite young and a cossie was just to expensive to run probably will still be but i got a sierra hatch with the pinto in aswell as a escort van to drive about in aswell but mot booked for the hatch so fingers crossed i can drive it around for a year maybe and keep my ncb going as not used them in a year cos insured van 3rd part and they said my ncb gets cancelled after 2 years without it

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by johN. View Post
    Oh what does that require then a larger gasket or something and what parts to get a pinto to over 200 hp maybe 250
    You skim the head by about 1mm or more.

    Easy to get the pinto to 250bhp. all the parts you listed and a 285 Deg cam. Then give it a 1 Bar of boost.
    There are plenty of big bhp pinto. Look for the 500bhp one on youtube

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by johN. View Post
    Oh what does that require then a larger gasket or something and what parts to get a pinto to over 200 hp maybe 250


    Not much, I had 201 Bhp from a standard Pinto running 600 mbar and DMTL carb converted to turbo. Compression lowered to approx 8,5 /1. Can be done on Injection intake as well. Must say, this exact same engine "only" made 185 Bhp on standard EFI manifold, bigger injectors and several different makes of ECU (it was my test engine for a very long time. Almost every new make of ECU was first tested on this engine).

    This is a graph where I tested 2 different turbo's. For some reason I can no longer load new attachments on this forum. Otherwise I could show the difference between carb an fuel injection on exact the same engine.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails GT2528 versus RS turbo.jpg‎  

    Last edited by Dyno; 30-03-2013 at 23:02.

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    So what you are saying is the stock efi manifold is shit?

    Step into my office.....

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Fuel injection will be better every time, I will stand over the line and say whoever was installing and calibrating the engine management system simply did not know what they were doing !
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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Clint View Post
    Fuel injection will be better every time, I will stand over the line and say whoever was installing and calibrating the engine management system simply did not know what they were doing !
    I got this discussion time after time. If people read something that should not be so they try to ignore the result. I've dyno tested well over 600 engine from 1998 until date. So I do think I know what I'm doing. Sometime you test and think you know the result of it (like longer trumpets make more torque) but it not always show the same result in the real world.

    I have little to no explanation why this engine made more power on carbs than on injection. I don't think it had anything to do with the EFI manifold himself. I think it was the extra coolant the carburetor made to the manifold. When I was testing the carb the first time I did not used water heating to the manifold (manifold heating closed with epoxy). The whole manifold was frozen cold and I had 200 Bhp WITH and WITHOUT intercooler. But of course, I had very bad idle (freezing). So I took a standard plenum and connected the water supply to pre-heat the manifold. Again I had 200 Bhp (and no longer freezing at idle). BUT, only when I was using the intercooler. Without intercooler I only had 185 Bhp. Same as the fuel injection system. If I test the fuel injection system without intercooler, power dropped even more.

    It does not matter where the fuel comes from and how it get mixed. I did back to back tests carb and fuel injection many times before and there is no real difference in power (not seldom carb made more power), only at lower RPM carbs start to make problems and when we talk about fuel consumption, carb will no win the game but if setup correct there is little difference.

    When using fuel injection the injectors spray straight into the head and there is little time for the fuel to vaporize and lower the intake charge. Engine designers do this just to PREVENT vaporizing !!! If I would have fitted the fuel injectors at the same length from the cylinders as the distance the fuel had to travel with the carburetor I'm almost sure I could make the same power. But I never did the test until date.

    If you feel I have no idea of how to tune a fuel injection system correct. The engine is still in my workshop, so I invite you to proof what you are willing to explain. I will fit the engine to the dyno, you adjust your injection, we will take it back of and I will fit my carb. The engine is here for a long time. When we had a new make ECU I fitted it first to this engine to see how fast I could setup the new ECU, and at the same time we could compare if the ECU made the same power as any other. I tested cheap ECU's, Megasquirt ECU's etc. Never had any difference in power. Only time you needed to get result did vary.

    Please except an expansive system not always wins over a cheaper system. And yes, if this would be a big power race turbo engine like my Honda's, I would start with fuel injection as well. Because of the many advanced options you can easy bring into live.
    Last edited by Dyno; 31-03-2013 at 10:13.

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    I I don't think it had anything to do with the EFI manifold himself.
    Exactly nor do I - the EFI manifold is not restrictive in any way at 200BHP and is actually a good design, I can guarantee you I could get more average power from this than any carb setup with the same engine and same conditions on the same day.

    Its a bit silly to say one is better than the other in one post then say it was under different circumstances in another post, of course denser air will make great differences.
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    pinto turbo management ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by robrs2 View Post
    Lots of ways to do it

    I'm modding a YB inlet to fit the pinto, no need to do it but looked better.
    Couple of random pics of mine if they help for ideas. I have ran the engine on standard efi and megasquirt no turbo yet.

    Click image for larger version Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1364724034.556119.jpg Views:	433 Size:	100.8 KB ID:	63046

    Click image for larger version Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1364724058.102688.jpg Views:	428 Size:	101.5 KB ID:	63047

    Click image for larger version Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1364724075.522967.jpg Views:	429 Size:	92.9 KB ID:	63048

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    that inlet looks very nice is this a std unit or custom and did u make that turbo manifold youself been thinking about that design i want

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Its a bit silly to say one is better than the other in one post then say it was under different circumstances in another post, of course denser air will make great differences.[/QUOTE]


    What do you mean with this ? I've never say one is better than the other for flow figures, nor for power. I feel the extra power came from extra cooling do to fuel vaporization. I have no other explanation. It was a single carburetor setup. You just can't use it on big boost egines. I was using fuel injection on all my big HP engines. Just because it is more easy.

    About carb's in atmo setup an fuel injection. I really did a lot of back to back test. If it was possible to fit carburetors I was always using carb setup to brake in the engine because you can start very fast and load the engine. With fuel injection you sometimes loose time to find a basic map and this can have influence on running in the engine. So in most cases I already got a dyno graph before I start with fuel injection. When it comes to raw power from lets say 3000 up to 7000 RPM, no difference. Sometimes carb may have 1 kilo more than injection is better but always very little difference.

    If someone would have told me 10 years ago he got a turbo making more power on carb than on EFI I would not believe him. I've seen a lot more "contra" tests in my live, sometimes you just have to accept it.

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    My inlet manifold. All most ready to be welded up


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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Nice do u do your own welding

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    pinto turbo management ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by johN. View Post
    that inlet looks very nice is this a std unit or custom and did u make that turbo manifold youself been thinking about that design i want
    The inlet is a hybrid of pinto efi flange and cosworth plenum. The sole reason for doing this was so i could fit a strut brace, they do look a bit better aswell. This has turned out to be quite an expensive luxury but i think they do look better, you could also fit a swedish plenum if you wanted etc


    Rob if you get the lengths right the fuel rail fits straight on (just in case you missed it)

    Mine was done by machining the runners off and replacing with straight alloy tubing as cylinder 1 is quite kinked. Also watch you can still fit in the dissy i am using wasted spark so i had to remove the dissy cap to fit ,eventually got a drive from HPE. Also if you are doing this in a mk1 escort it will clout the fuse box (see what i mean about a luxury)

    Exhaust design was lifted from robrs2 (cheers) and made by a mate of mine in stainless bends etc

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Is there a way to copy a exhaust manifold off someone from this forum

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Lots of photos have a look through.


    fuel rail doesnt match up on mine due to it being off an Escort Cossie small turbo, so i need to make some brackets. Cant weld alloy so need to find someone to do it
    Last edited by robrs2; 31-03-2013 at 22:53.

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    I think robrs2 had a nice topic about turbo exhaust manifold. I think I even put my manifold pictures on the same topic but can't find it anymore. Maybe robrs2 can find it back and at the link?

    I got a problem loading pictures on this forum, can't post pictures anymore but I also had a very easy way for building a turbo collector for the Pinto using laser cut metal. Pictures in the same topic.

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=176185

    Found the link, not sure it will open direct.

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Just load photos into a photobucket account and copy the IMG tags in.


    As i have put in the thread. The main problem with log type manifold is them warping and heat expansion. The manifold gasket to head will leak over time, had to change mine every year.

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by wildo105e View Post
    Couple of random pics of mine if they help for ideas. I have ran the engine on standard efi and megasquirt no turbo yet.
    Have you a photo of the dizzy side. Hope to try my up and see if the cossie angled dizzy cap will fit

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by robrs2 View Post
    Just load photos into a photobucket account and copy the IMG tags in.


    As i have put in the thread. The main problem with log type manifold is them warping and heat expansion. The manifold gasket to head will leak over time, had to change mine every year.
    Yes can be an issue but if you do not use one long flange against the engine and use good quality gaskets it should not be a problem. (I was using 4 individual on my layout). If you do use one long flange, cut them after welding. And I do not prefer SS for the same reason. It does not want to flex. We had lots of cracks when I was using SS. I prefer steel tubes like steam bends or (thick wall) sheet metal.

  36. #36
    Racer Decade Plus User wildo105e's Avatar

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    pinto turbo management ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by robrs2 View Post
    Have you a photo of the dizzy side. Hope to try my up and see if the cossie angled dizzy cap will fit
    Will do tomorrow

  37. #37
    Racer Decade Plus User robrs2's Avatar

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Just tried mine on. Its not looking good. But i had a points dizzy in the engine, need to try the cossiy dizzy in as it looks shorter and has the angled plug leads.
    Worst case i need to add 20mm to the inlet lengths

  38. #38
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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Some good news sierra pinto has a years mot great stuff so now to start collecting parts for it thinking of getting power steering 1st then a radiator as got leaky one at the moment

  39. #39
    Racer Decade Plus User robrs2's Avatar

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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    Tried the cut inlet on a spare EFI pinto, lucky it fits but tight.



  40. #40
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    Re: pinto turbo management ideas

    that is tight but as you said fits will i need to upgrade the dizzy for turbo use

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