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Thread: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

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    S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Hello all,
    Iím looking at engine options for a Mk1 build and seriouslyconsidering the S2000 engine but on a budget. Iíve read nearly all the threadson the section but Iím still left wondering if it is possible to install theengine with a wet sump and the original ECU? If these are a must then I may have to look at other options as a dry sump (£1500+) plus ECU (£1000+) would makethe engine install alone over £5k considering current engine prices.
    Is there any way to keep the original sump (or even afabricated pan) and ECU? Fingers are crossed!

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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    I had a look at one that was parked in a workshop of a rally centre. it had the standard sump with a wedge cut out, and the cross member had been lowered with some blocks. The majority of the work would be on the tunnel. I would say you would be best getting hold of a written off complete car that you could take all the loom dash ecu engine and box. thats what I would do anyway.
    I think its gotta be one of the best conversions with the six speed box
    [SIGPIC]

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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Yes you can keep a wet sump and the factory ecu too. I've seen a wet sump install in a mk1 and I know you can use the factory ecu too.
    What puts people off the factory ecu setup is wiring and the built-in immobiliser so you need to have the original key fob and s2000 clocks. As well as the engine/ecu loom there maybe an additional cabin loom too integrate too from memory.
    You can now see why a aftermarket ecu makes the whole job a lot easier! It's not impossible as many of the US 86 boys have done it but its not easy either.

    Do a search on google for honda f20c ae86 swap. That should bring up some good info regarding the stock ecu setup wiring etc.

    Dave
    Last edited by bunta20v; 07-04-2013 at 00:17.
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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Excellent! thanks for the responses. Looks like its on the cards then.

    I do have an OMEX600 knocking around but I read somewhere that I'd need a 710 to control the VTEC properly. Can anyone confirm?

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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    I don't know about the omex but i know the dta s40 can activate the vtec at any rev range you want at the click of a button but you will have to chnage the fueling and ignition for it to come in at lower rpms

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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Hi im confident omex 600 can run vtec. it ran VVT on my 20v 4age without issue however VVT is not as complex as VTEC. Omex 600 is an excellent piece of kit and thats the way I would go if I was doing the F20c conversion.
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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by turl2 View Post
    Excellent! thanks for the responses. Looks like its on the cards then.

    I do have an OMEX600 knocking around but I read somewhere that I'd need a 710 to control the VTEC properly. Can anyone confirm?
    Quote Originally Posted by bunta20v View Post
    Hi im confident omex 600 can run vtec. it ran VVT on my 20v 4age without issue however VVT is not as complex as VTEC. Omex 600 is an excellent piece of kit and thats the way I would go if I was doing the F20c conversion.
    Dave I thought VTEC was alot simpler than VVT since VTEC only comes in at a certain rpm and is either on or off whereas with VVT on the 20V it is based on rpm against TPS so can switch on and off depending... now dont argue cos I have the 20V graph to prove it

    Still in answer to your question the OMEX600 installation manual states VTEC cam control, you can get it for free off their website
    Last edited by Mk1_Deano; 08-04-2013 at 10:54.

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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Cossie it!

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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mk1_Deano View Post
    Dave I thought VTEC was alot simpler than VVT since VTEC only comes in at a certain rpm and is either on or off whereas with VVT on the 20V it is based on rpm against TPS so can switch on and off depending... now dont argue cos I have the 20V graph to prove it

    Still in answer to your question the OMEX600 installation manual states VTEC cam control, you can get it for free off their website
    I dont agree. VVT is nothing more than a simple mechanical advance/retard device based on the inlet cam ONLY. Assuming we are talking about a 20v 4age blacktop running a stock ecu. VVT works on startup, above 50 degrees engine temp, engine load (TPS) and inlet manifold pressure.

    VTEC even in its basic form can alter cam timing like VVT but can also alter valve duration and lift. VVT has never been able to do this!
    I do agree that the inputs in which VTEC works on is simpler as it works on revs (TPS) and is even more reliant on oil pressure. (engine temp)

    VVTL-i is a different kettle of fish and works more like VTEC.

    Check this article out

    http://www.billzilla.org/vvtvtec.htm
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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    See ^^^^^^ Cossie it!

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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott_B View Post
    See ^^^^^^ Cossie it!
    Cossie over a F20c?????? F20c all day long

    Joking. Great engine
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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by bunta20v View Post
    I dont agree. VVT is nothing more than a simple mechanical advance/retard device based on the inlet cam ONLY. Assuming we are talking about a 20v 4age blacktop running a stock ecu. VVT works on startup, above 50 degrees engine temp, engine load (TPS) and inlet manifold pressure.

    VTEC even in its basic form can alter cam timing like VVT but can also alter valve duration and lift. VVT has never been able to do this!
    I do agree that the inputs in which VTEC works on is simpler as it works on revs (TPS) and is even more reliant on oil pressure. (engine temp)

    VVTL-i is a different kettle of fish and works more like VTEC.

    Check this article out

    http://www.billzilla.org/vvtvtec.htm
    Aha yes your right from purely a mechanical point of view that VVT is much simpler but I'm talking from purely a controls point of view rather than a mechanical perspective
    Controls on VTEC is either on/off given rpm tps etc. hence Omex provides a single output to control this. What RAW had to do with the 20V was sync a second output on the omex to engage a second relay to break the first relay circuit to turn off the VVT as per the graph below defining VVT based tps and rpm

    Standard VVT Graph (note that above 6400rpm VVT and Full load TPS VVT is off)


    VTEC Graph :

    OFF < set rpm (given other parameters) < ON

    Omex VTEC Control screenshot:



    Thus controlling VTEC is simpler and for this application I'm sure OMEX will do the job just fine
    Last edited by Mk1_Deano; 08-04-2013 at 13:00.

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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mk1_Deano View Post
    Aha yes your right from purely a mechanical point of view that VVT is much simpler but I'm talking from purely a controls point of view rather than a mechanical perspective
    Controls on VTEC is either on/off given rpm tps etc. hence Omex provides a single output to control this. What RAW had to do with the 20V was sync a second output on the omex to engage a second relay to break the first relay circuit to turn off the VVT as per the graph below defining VVT based tps and rpm

    Standard VVT Graph (note that above 6400rpm VVT and Full load TPS VVT is off)


    VTEC Graph :

    OFF < set rpm (given other parameters) < ON

    Omex VTEC Control screenshot:



    Thus controlling VTEC is simpler and for this application I'm sure OMEX will do the job just fine
    Brilliant info m8. Yes definately agree VTEC should be ok with this. Always wondered why the stock Toyota setup didnt use a relay for VVT.
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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    That's sorted that then

    I had noticed the cam control section of the 600 manual but thought that there was a little more to the F20 VTEC control. It would be fantastic if the 600 would run VTEC but I not so sure having seen this on the OMEX site..

    This text is common for the 600 and 710 ECU's.....

    VTEC
    VTEC single switch point cam control with user definable engine load, throttle position, and engine speed switch point and user definable hysteresis levels to aid smooth transitions from one cam profile to the next. Ignition and fuel trims are also possible in the VTEC mode.

    This is unique to the 710....

    The 710 ECU also features twin channel infinitely variable cam control for engines such as the Honda K20 iVTEC.

    Why would you need 2 channels? Are the inlet and exhaust cams controlled independently?

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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by turl2 View Post
    That's sorted that then

    I had noticed the cam control section of the 600 manual but thought that there was a little more to the F20 VTEC control. It would be fantastic if the 600 would run VTEC but I not so sure having seen this on the OMEX site..

    This text is common for the 600 and 710 ECU's.....

    VTEC
    VTEC single switch point cam control with user definable engine load, throttle position, and engine speed switch point and user definable hysteresis levels to aid smooth transitions from one cam profile to the next. Ignition and fuel trims are also possible in the VTEC mode.

    This is unique to the 710....

    The 710 ECU also features twin channel infinitely variable cam control for engines such as the Honda K20 iVTEC.

    Why would you need 2 channels? Are the inlet and exhaust cams controlled independently?
    A quick wiki shows that the F20C VTEC is 6000rpm standard VTEC and the K20 iVTEC is a completely different engine but is not found in the S2k's....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_F20C_engine

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_K_engine

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    S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    I have this engine on throttle bodies in my Sunbeam running and set up on the rolling road.

    ECU and loom was £500 new with base map


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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mk1_Deano View Post
    A quick wiki shows that the F20C VTEC is 6000rpm standard VTEC and the K20 iVTEC is a completely different engine but is not found in the S2k's....
    Thanks...I was never very good at speed reading. Just need to see if this has been done already.

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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by cossymax View Post
    I have this engine on throttle bodies in my Sunbeam running and set up on the rolling road.

    ECU and loom was £500 new with base map
    Which ECU is this, sounds like a good deal if its a 600?

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    S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Need to run crank trigger wheel and a coil pack as well.

    MTec 3D ECU


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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    there is no reason why you cant use a wet sump and factory ecu, wiring really is the issue but nothing major if you have the original key fob and clocks

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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    If you get a jdm engine + ecu you wont need to worry about the immobilizer since they didnt have them.
    Just use the factory ecu with a few "delete" kits from different suppliers. Such as electronic secondary o2 sensor deleter, egr/air-pump delete, evap/fuel-gas purge delete and a hks speed limit defender to break the factory 180km/h limit in the jdm ecu. All you need then is a "yellowbox" or a "yellowjacket" to tune the readings from the gearbox speed sensor since it would most likely show to much speed running with different final drive and 13/15" wheels in the back of an escort. You can use the uk speedogauge to read in mp/h, it's applicable with the jdm-ecu. You will ofcourse also need the wiring harness under the dash along with the fuseboxes and relays, but that could neatly be tucked away under the dash of an escort. The fuelsender-unit from the s2000 will also be needed. No cel's should appear doing this, atleast in theory Just make sure you run on atleast 98ron fuel and things should work out fine i think. Working out the costs for all these little "delete" resistor kits totals out at about £250. Considering what a AEM or Hondata management system costs + mapping it certainly is cheaper, the extra wiring/relays and fuel sender are pretty cheap to get a hold of through the bay...

    I was planning on doing this conversion in my own mk1 escort but unfortunately it now appears that due to regulations here in Sweden the car cant have an engine with over 220bhp as factory standard, that wouldnt pass regulations.
    Think im gonna go with a standard K24a1 instead and use the F20c gearbox with an adapterplate.
    Last edited by Gyver; 25-01-2014 at 23:21.

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    Re: S2000 - Can it really be done on a budget?

    Quote Originally Posted by bunta20v View Post
    I dont agree. VVT is nothing more than a simple mechanical advance/retard device based on the inlet cam ONLY. Assuming we are talking about a 20v 4age blacktop running a stock ecu. VVT works on startup, above 50 degrees engine temp, engine load (TPS) and inlet manifold pressure.

    VTEC even in its basic form can alter cam timing like VVT but can also alter valve duration and lift. VVT has never been able to do this!
    I do agree that the inputs in which VTEC works on is simpler as it works on revs (TPS) and is even more reliant on oil pressure. (engine temp)

    VVTL-i is a different kettle of fish and works more like VTEC.

    Check this article out

    http://www.billzilla.org/vvtvtec.htm
    Vtec is much simpler imo. It is switched on by a relay locking the lifters together to switch onto a bigger cam lobe. Simples. The engine/oil temp on the vtec is only to stop vtec being used when it is cold to reduce rapid engine wear.

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