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Thread: Graham's bmw 2002 race car.

  1. #41
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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    been looking at what i can do with zero cost

    first off i chucked a seat in the car as far back as i will be able to mount it when the cage is in. with a much lower and further back than std position clearly the pedals were too long and in the wrong position.


    here a pic of the master cylinders, scarily the brake one is two welded togther that was never going to stay, i used to have an engine bay mounted bias box, but the makes access to the the rear exhaust branches very tight so i decided to have the brake masters inside the car instead.
    the oe clutch master isnt so much in the way, but does pick up a lot of exhaust heat, so i decide to cockpit mount that too, it also means i can use a universal master



    i offered up the pedal box i never fitted to the e30, teh shorter 02 floor pan just didnt allow room for it. then i got to thinking about modifying the oe pedal box. thinking about pedal leverages it finally dawned on me perhaps why i was never truly happy with the e30 brakes, the e30 had same size cylinders as the old 02 and initially the same brakes, but they never felt anything like as good in the e30, which i put down to weight, but despite upgrading lieterally every aspect of the e30 brakes a couple of times i could never get the feel i wanted, thats not to say it didnt stop, it did and well, it just never felt the same, the one difference between the e30 and 02 was the pedal boxes, the 02 had an 02 box the e30 had an escort one, which has 25% less leverage.



    first off i chopped the pedals to get them in the right place, i did them one at a time



    then i cannibalized the floor mounted pedal box so i could adapt the oe pedal box to take a reversed above pedal pivot clutch master. it took a couple of attempts to get the it right so the master push rod didnt bind on the body but so far so good, brake masters next


  2. #42
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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Looks a nice close fit..where are you runnuing the reservoirs...

  3. #43
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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    they have to be under the bonnet to comply with msa regulations

  4. #44
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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    ive been asked for updates, well there hasnt been any progress really, backwards if anything!

    i bought the car out of the funds i put by for the business, so all ive been busy selling off bits that wont make it onto the track, including the cage it came with, that was a laugh, the chap that bought it couldnt get it into his car, so it got a leg sawn off!

    i did spend a bit though, a set of forged alpina pistons came up for sale, i bought them with a view to getting them copied (and a few adjustments made) and selling the origonal ones on again.

    these are a design that the best 02 engines use, the problem is you have to machine away massive amounts of the combustion chamber to use them, and very few people can, not only that but if you suffer a problem a quick rebuild becomes impossible, but as i now have pistons i can have more made and have spares and even machine up spare heads once ive worked out how. the best bit is with the domed pistons you can get 12.1 or more compression without skimming everything to death.





    the piston on the right is std 121 tii but with massive valve cutouts needed to clear a 336 cam

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Now, that's a nice piston.

    I'm sure many 2002 fans will be looking at this with interest. I'm not sure if, once copied, you'll be interested in selling them but, if you did... I'm pretty sure there would be a lot of people willing to buy them.

    Cheers and keep up the good work,

    Mário Santos.

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  7. #46
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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    i migt even have them made to suit std and longer rods, although feed back i've heard so far is that on a m10 long rods dont increase power, possible because at 1.68 the std rod/stroke ratio is good anyway, longer 144mm rods would give 1.8, i suspect lack of power gain may be because with a less than ultimate flowing head slowing down piston acceration is a negative, unless you make a lot of other changes

    i might just have to build both...........

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Love it Graham...reminds me of my trips up to see Lester Owen to see if he had any old heads and pistons lying around for my 2002 that I could afford. I remember he had Carlos Sainz brothers car there. I was like a kid in a toy shop, it was amazing seeing all those M12's being built! Different world to my budget...

    Aussie Taffy

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Different world to my budget...
    yep know that feeling, lester often said two things to me,

    first being "why didnt i let him build me an engine" budget was always the answer as i could never afford the extra 10K

    second being "your doing it wrong!" but thats because i didnt build the engine the same as he does, that said he would usually agree i got pretty close seeing as i was doing it wrong and for next to no money!

    and when i showed him a power plot showing i got 240bhp, he just said, hmm, my most powerfull engine was a 2.3!

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Nice to see a project on here that's not a ford. Do have a soft spot for the 1800ti tin tops that race in the historic stuff.

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    subscribed

    Interesting that my poor 2002 has been locked away in a shed for a number of years unloved. I have just retired and am starting to tinker again with her. Just bought her a set of new rims and fitting rear disc brakes. Hint E30 316i front solid discs could be a good option on the back.

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  13. #51
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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    re rear discs, my old car ran with drilled drums, and there really wasn't any need for discs, i think one of the only real improvements i made when i switched to and e30 was discs all round was the all round discs gave a more consistent brake pedal feel,

    where i will probably race this i will be up against more modern cars with anything upto 300bhp, having decided to limit myself to 2.0 and 8 valves i will have my work cut out so i need every last scrap of weight saved possible, disc setups are often heavier than drums, so for rear discs im thinking of motorcycle discs and calipers
    Last edited by Graham; 24-10-2013 at 08:23.

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    i had a poke around at the better? n/s chassis rail



    the lower sections are relatively straight and wouldnt be too hard to replicate or adapt universal sections, unfortunately middle section is quite heavily contoured and joins to a reinforcing section that carry's the front x member, i didnt fancy patching this section and in particulary feared i wouldnt be able to restore it to full strength



    i cut out a grotty section of floor, then way enlarged the incision and exposed the inside of the lower rail section, although not as rusty as teh other side its definatly mach thinner than it should be,



    ive since found i can get new rails from bmw, full rails from front to where they finish under the front floor pans, lots of work to fit, but probably the best way to go, the only down side is they are over Ł500 a pair PLUS VAT. so for the moment im just thinking on it

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    If the whole car is caged and gusseted, is there any need to replace the rails? Why not just flat floor it. Would be cheaper and better ground clearance?
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Most likely because the race regs hes building it to say no flat floors

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Shame
    its not dead till it's buried!


    T.I.T engineering. "Feel the power!"

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Just nicked these from piston heads, thought they might inspire the build. Although the first one may not be radical enough for you




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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Hi Graham,

    You have a private message about the pistons pictured in this thread.

    Cheers kieran99

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Hi Graham, after much searching for a semi dome high comp piston for my m10 build here in Australia, it seems like you are the man.

    I am in the process of machining out the combustion chambers to accept domed pistons which I have yet to design, but......I would much rather have the piston design first and machine out the head second.

    I was wondering what arrangement we could come to from here?. Could I purchase a single broken/worn piston, or do you have some measurements or a drawing? Whatever suits you would be fine with me and of course I am willing to pay for your effort.

    Hopefully you get this message and we can come to some arrangement.

    Regards, Kieran Sullivan, Sydney Australia.
    M3 E30 and E30 M10 club race car

  21. #59
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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    i have one set of used but would go again pistons thats all, i actually bought them with the intention of having them copied myself, i just havnt done so yet as my own plans for racing are on hold right now.

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Hi Graham,

    Is there any chance you could take a couple of rough measurements for me like diameter, height from pin centre line to shoulder and max height from pin centre line to top of dome? Any starting point would be greatly appreciated.

    Regards, Kieran99

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    work has gone a bit quiet, so ive dug the 02 out and cut out the grot from the n/s chassis rail/floor/sill.
    whilst i have no money to actually spend welding doesnt cost me anything so is time well spent.

    not the neatest work ive ever done, but ive cut pretty deep so as to take out anything even remotely iffy. almost all the joints are butt welded, it takes longer to do, but is neater, lighter and saves creating moisture taps, everything is getting a healthy coat of worm poison.

    folding up 18 gauge to make a chassis rail using nothing more than a hammer and an RSJ as an angvil was something else!








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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    although its probably years off im getting excited about the thought of driving this again, a well set up 02 chassis is sublime and makes far better use of power than the e30 chassis i replaced the 02 with first time round.

    so ive been giving the engine some thought, i fancy another crack with an m10, i quite fancy a bonkers spec 2.0, however am considering something a little more sensible and wallet friendly. however time has moved on since i last used a 2.0 m10 and it may simply not be up to the task of running as a class front runner anymore, so IF i can find a bit of cash a 2.3 or 2.4 will be on the cards.

    ultimately though i want to go back to s14 power, but in the shape of a 10,000 rpm 2.0, but thats megga bucks, 6K just for a base unit and probably another 8-10 to build it so thats deffo not happening any time soon
    Last edited by Graham; 14-06-2014 at 22:49.

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Good to see you back working on the car. Looks like nice solid work.
    To finish first, you must first finish

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Congrats Graham!

    I was beginning to think this project was almost forgotten due to the "Garage Challenge" that you've gotten yourself into.

    Keep us posted!

    Cheers,

    Mário Santos.

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    HA HA, i cant really forget it, it sits there looking at me with sad eyes every day i walk into work.

    once ive done welding chassis and cage the next thing will be to try and find some cash to get a cage in it, which will be a whole load of work, because about the only people doing a weld in multipoint are custom cages and we all know how well they dont fit.

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    a smidgen more progress, ive bought a multipoint T45 weld in rollcage, from custom cages because they were the only ones that made what i wanted, so it will no doubt be a pain to fit. not that anything will happen until ive finished daves sierra

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Keep up the good work!

    How's your business running if I may ask? No regrets?

    Cheers mate,

    Mário Santos.

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    business is growing, i have enough work, just, im doing a lot of work for the trade, id say 90% trade 10% retail, so its keeping me busy which is good, but the trade work is labour only (no parts sales) and heavily discounted, so i wont really make anything money wise until the retail client base is much bigger, and i wont make any proper money until the workload has grown enough to take on staff, it will come.

    no regrets, well almost none. im very happy in my work and growing the company, my only regret is i cant go racing or build cars for myself, i simply have neither the time or money, but im in it for the long haul, i will be racing again, just not anytime soon.

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    realistic outlook

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Well, it seems to me you're on the right path so I'm glad for you.

    About racing, you know not many of us get to do all we wanted but don't forget that you can always say you already did more than most have (with me deeply included in this category).

    Cheers,

    Mário Santos.

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    not an update as such, but for the first time since last june, ive actually been able to get to the car. its been locked in a corner surrounded by other on going jobs, at the moment it has no suspension on it at all, so think im going to put some wheels on a pallet so i can at least wheel it around the workshop so i can get 5 mins working on it here and there.

    i have now decided where im going with the engine though, i want to build another true 2.0 8v m10, not sure i can be really competitive with one though, its ten years since i last raced with a 200bhp 2.0, back then it was very competitive with an all up weight of 900kg, if i can get it down to 850kg and push the engine to 210-215bhp i may just be able to hang onto the generally heavier 16v motors in the class, but its going to be a tall order
    Last edited by Graham; 29-03-2015 at 11:55.

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Keep at it Graham,

    It will be great to see you back racing soon.
    To finish first, you must first finish

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    I am sure it will be competitive with a nice clicky box in it !

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Toymex View Post
    I am sure it will be competitive with a nice clicky box in it !
    hmm, that had crossed my mind, not sure i can bring myself to spend more on a gearbox than the rest of the running gear though!

    gearbox will certainly be an issue, the correct (for the car and needed if i ever do anything historic) factory close ratio dog leg 5 speed gearboxs are very rare, and i know other than for bearings spares are now almost unobtainable, ratios are an issue too, first is a waste of time for circuit use, and once you start pushing the revs to 8k the ratios get a bit gappy. later small six dogleg can be adapted, but ratios are no better, the E30 m3 dogleg is physically a lot bigger and heavier although unbreakable (i couldnt break one with 440lbft) and the ratios worse still for a high rev narrow powerband, so i may end up with a clicky box as its cheaper and better ratio wise than the alternatives.

    even with a clicky box, it will be hard to be competitive, power wise my engine maxed out will only be the equivalent of a slightly warmed over 2.0 16valver, but to put it into perspective im more interested in getting the most i can out of the car than actually winning, if winning was the actual goal i'd pick another car

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Graham,

    Don't try and build the car to win straight away, just build a car to get on track and then develop over time. Most important aspect is to get out on the black stuff again.

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by john savage View Post
    Graham,

    , just build a car to get on track and then develop over time. Most important aspect is to get out on the black stuff again.
    that would be my advise to someone else, but i wont be happy if i cant lap brands in the mid 55's, because thats what the old car would do on secondhand slicks, so i have to aim to better that if not win.

    realistically it wont be on track anytime soon, i just dont have the money, its all tied up in the business and im not going to get in debt just to go racing. Been there done that, in the long term doing that really hurts!

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn



    this might not look much but its major progress, the cars now out of its corner and mobile, well on a trolley, which means i can actually work on it again

  40. #78
    Bodger mario r h santos's Avatar

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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn



    Looking forward to see this car on track Graham!

    Cheers,

    Mário Santos.

  41. #79
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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    now the car lives at work not home i cant just pop down the end of the garden for a few hours here and there, so will have to make an effort to find a bit of time to work on it at the end of each day before i go home, it will mean not working so late on customers cars, but its something i have to do if i am to ever get it done before im 50, and at teh moment thats my goal, be racing again before the big Five O, which gives me, 2 years 19 days!

    hers a few pics to kick the thread back into life


    rear beam ready for stripping down, its now in bits


    look at that wheel spacer someone fitted, its an inch thick and weighs a ton, but even with that 7 inch wheels are lost under the rear arches


    adjustable camber brackets i made and fitted some 15 years ago


    alloy panels in boot floor, they wil have to go to comply with race regs, left one is where the spare wheel well was cut out, i have to put steel back in there, right side is where the fuel tank was, removing the std tank leaves a big hole in the floor, in theory that one cold stay as its not a modification to the floor, but rather than risk a fight i will put a steel panel in there, theres very little structure to the very rear of these cars anyway so prob not a bad idea


    teh diff, sadly although its an lsd somewhere over the years my motorsport diff has been replaced with a road going e21 lsd, which wont cut it on a powerfull engine and slicks, i know i tried all those years ago


    alloy panels gone from boot floor, and my first proper look at the rear end underside


    bit of work needed here


    and here


    and here, but overall for such an old car it could be a lot worse.


    finally a bit of the repair work i did last year, no plates over anything, i cut anything grotty out, just a couple of little bits still to do to finish off, now i can get to the car and welding doesnt cost me anything that should soon get done
    Last edited by Graham; 01-04-2015 at 19:42.

  42. #80
    Racer Decade Plus User Roadsport's Avatar
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    Re: Grahams new old race car, bmw 2002 reborn

    Welding is nice that way.
    "Failure is always an option." - Adam Savage

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