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Thread: Pipes pinto :)

  1. #201
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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Ok.. It's a long time since the heads been off it, but I think they are 38 an 44's.

    I see what you mean about the deepened chamber's and the valve lift, it would effectively make the valve lift less by lengthening the valve wouldn't it.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    just flow tested the head, looks like more cam lift would be in order,

    current cam lifts to a bit over 500, which gave the 113cfm i measured at full lift but going to 600 thou lift got 119cfm.

    the exciting bit is after many many months of waiting i finally have a set of 1.8 inch valves to suit the 1600 casting

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)


    its been a mare getting my hands on these




    rather than simply open the valve throats out for the bigger valves, ive decided to make some offset valve guides, ive got a 4 jaw chuck, but swapping chucks is a pain, so a bit of hacksaw blade and the 3 jaw gave me a 1mm offset, so i could bore and tap a piece of steel off centre to make a tool to hold guides to turn them down offset.



    packing piece removed i can bolt a guide to tool and turn it down, bmw m10 guides are same length and internal dia as pinto, but are 14mm od, giving me just enough material to offset turn them down to 1/2 inch and thus fit a pinto head bored for guides. here im practicing with some old bmw guides

    theory now says i can fit them to the head and rework it to suit the bigger valves and only remove material out the short turn
    Last edited by Graham; 07-10-2017 at 18:36.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    How are you keeping them in position once fitted..will the interference fit be enough.?.i like the idea..i also thought about changing the angle as well...interested to see results..cheers mark

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    interference is enough, in fact thats all that keeps guides in place in many many engines,

    yes i have ideas about both moving and changing valve angles, if you were to straighten up the valve you could also move it to the manifold face and still be on the follower. BUT i would need to start again with a fresh head which hasnt been drilled for guides already.

    but for now im simply moving the valve 1mm towards the manifold face, the pad on the newman followers im using is long enough to cope, and it will generate a bit more lift

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    interference is enough, in fact thats all that keeps guides in place in many many engines,

    yes i have ideas about both moving and changing valve angles, if you were to straighten up the valve you could also move it to the manifold face and still be on the follower. BUT i would need to start again with a fresh head which hasnt been drilled for guides already.

    but for now im simply moving the valve 1mm towards the manifold face, the pad on the newman followers im using is long enough to cope, and it will generate a bit more lift

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Is it not easier just reaming an offset hole in a mill into a guide blank? then just turn down the OD to the correct size?

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Is it not easier just reaming an offset hole in a mill into a guide blank? then just turn down the OD to the correct size?
    not sure how what your suggesting would be easier, ive made a tool so it doesnt matter how many i need its just a matter of turning an existing guide down to the right OD

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    I take it you’re trying to move the valve over? So I’d have thought reaming the id offset in a solid guide blank then turning to the correct OD would be simpler than making a tool?

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    I take it youre trying to move the valve over? So Id have thought reaming the id offset in a solid guide blank then turning to the correct OD would be simpler than making a tool?

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    it didnt take much to make the tool now i have it its only one operation per guide, not two as your suggesting, and set up time to do guides is seconds.

    future evolution will probably involve moving guide holes on heads which havnt already been drilled for guides so we will be back to using off the peg guides
    Last edited by Graham; 08-10-2017 at 13:07.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Hi graham just read thread from your flow figures is it fear to say that the 45 throttle bodys are to small you may need 48 mm throttle bodys cheers mario.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by mariors2000 View Post
    Hi graham just read thread from your flow figures is it fear to say that the 45 throttle bodys are to small you may need 48 mm throttle bodys cheers mario.
    i know that bigger bodies will flow more air, the bodies were carried over from a previous smaller engine, BUT bigger bodies wont give masses more, dont forget unlike a carb, there are no chokes or aux vents, a 45mm body will outflow a 48mm carb fitted with a huge choke.

    i did once run 50mm bodies on a 240bhp 4 cylinder bmw m10 engine, in practice they were too big, more than a few times i realized i wasnt quite flat out, pushed the pedal the rest of the way and got no more oomph, all 50mm did was loose some sensitivity, and with the best will in the world this pinto isnt going to out do my beemer engine, so i think 48 might we worth fitting but its not going to be more than a few bhp gain

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    left my phone at home so no pictures, but i have just re flow tested the head with the offset guides and new bigger valves,

    flow at 500 thou lift has jumped from 113 to 118cfm, so well worthwhile, @ 550 we now have 123cfm, lifting to 600 thou doesnt seem to give as much extra gain as it did before its now 125cfm, at that lift, which is just as well as the cam doesnt go anywhere near 600.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    some pictures, these are prior to the bigger valves going in, as you can see there is no short turn at all!
    and yet the head out flowed a lot of big valve heads, this shape works because the short turn is actually so bad in the first place, you might as well give up trying to make the air go round it and simply help it do what it naturally wants to do and that is go straight across the back of the valve



    although i must add this shape is a bad idea on a road engine because low lift flow suffers so its only good with high lift and long duration cams



    although a dont have a picture the short turn is where the extra flow has come from, simply because i didnt intend it to be so abrupt but valve availability and an already ported head meant i had to run with what i had, so we now have flow wise what i intended in the first place

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Hi graham is there port filler in bottom of port.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    no filler, filler would be an easy way to get a flow gain, but i didnt want it for two reasons, some race regulations prohibit adding material, secondly filler can come out.

    i can see why you think its got filler in it, the flat section of the port in the upper picture does look like filler, thats just the angle of the picture and the light, its flat because i removed material from the 5 and 7 oclock

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    I'm also, long time already a believer in the fact that the Pinto port does not flow like a classic port round all sites of the valve but more "over" the valve. I remember Vizard was using very flat Rimflo valves. These valve made better power because of the reverse ring but I feel the extra power came from more flow "over" the valve.

    Not sure much work has been done in this direction but it should also mean you have to reshape the combustion wall opposite of what we do right now. I mean grinding away and rounding of the side where all the air has to pass the port. Port shape should also be grind in a different shape. More like a big turn at the opposite of the short turn. Maybe adding metal between the valve guide and the final seat to give the air an other direction ?

    At least, if I had acces to a flow bench and had the time, I would try this way. All other heads, I know where they stall when it comes to max power and I do not expect any more miracles here. Of course, not sure my theory or thinking will work.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    hello Dirk im certainly encouraged by results so far, adding material between the valve and guide certainly worked when i tried it on a bmw head, well on the flowbench at least, i never tried it for real. although For now im not going to do any more development on this particular head. i dont want to risk a backwards step, and in any case i think im better off starting with a virgin head
    Last edited by Graham; 03-12-2017 at 20:40.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Following the same theory on any engine is not so good. Years and years they have tried to fit bigger and bigger valves in both T1 and T4 VW air cooled engines. My college and friend for over 35 years was a pioneer when it came to VW T1 tuning. No dyno, just race results. He always told me enlarging to 40 mm was advance, going further to 42 was no extra advance and 44 was less power or at least, other people started to pass in the race. Everybody has been fitting 44 and bigger in the years after.

    Since the first day's I had these engines in with masses I start to realize the almost standard reworked heads made almost the same power as those very high ported big valves. Same for T4 engines where 48 mm inlet became a standard. We now see more power with almost stock valves as with big ported heads and valves from the early years. As you know, the one who did stick with standard valves also had almost no porting done so there was no real compare.

    The VW port go straight to the valve head. Almost in line with the valve guide. Air can pass almost equal all over the valve. Not real short turn etc... Fit a big valve and you bounce right up to the massive valve head and there is no turn around anymore. Resulting in less air passing and less power. 2,3 Ltr engines with big ported heads and 125 Bhp where 1776 engines with 39 mm (late Mexico stock valve) made 117 Bhp with almost no port work.

    Never believe all work has been done already. I'm not a head specialist, nor VW specialist but I see exact the same when it comes to camshaft. Do not always fit what everybody is fitting. It may be totally wrong.
    Last edited by onyd; 03-12-2017 at 20:59.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    i agree certainly bigger isnt always better, bmw m10 valves are a massive 46mm as std, but you can get 47, and 48mm oversize, although lots of people fit them a man very knowledgeable with that engine told me there was no point to them they dont give any more power, same reason as the beetle i think, you might have more seat area, but the air has to travel further to get round the valve and into the cylinder, i did persist with the flowbench trying to make it work, i found a way in the engine, but it involved a lot of welding and using impossibly high valve lift.

    dave walker once told me he got a 2inch valve in a pinto head, it didnt give any more power though

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    impressive stuff as always graham

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    Is that an extra temperature sensor in that head Graham?

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    yes because its on injection

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Ok, so excuse my lack of knowledge. But what difference does that make then that it needs an extra sensor in the head.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    the sensor for ECU, other one is for dashboard.
    Modern engine use only one sensor, from ECU it forwards temp on dashboard

    The ECU needs to know engine temp to 'arrange' correct mixture of air/fuel
    Last edited by Mkdu; 07-12-2017 at 13:37.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Ok thanks.

    I did actually think to myself after posting that.

    Quote Originally Posted by rallyrob View Post
    Ok, so excuse my lack of knowledge. But what difference does that make then that it needs an extra sensor in the head.
    It must be for the ECU.
    Silly arse...

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mkdu View Post
    the sensor for ECU, other one is for dashboard.
    Modern engine use only one sensor, from ECU it forwards temp on dashboard

    The ECU needs to know engine temp to 'arrange' correct mixture of air/fuel
    Ans for the cold start/auto choke for when the engine is cold.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    so Summary

    head + dcoe mangoletsi high flow manifold+ 45mm TB's = 108cfm

    head + dcoe mangoletsi high flow manifold = 111cfm

    Head = 113cfm
    ive just repeated the same test, all be it with the head flowing more, a straighter manifold and 48 bodies

    the bare head flowed 126, but with the bigger bodies and straighter manifold fitted i got 118, back to back testing the old dcoe manifold and a straighter jenvey one shows the jenvey to be better by 1.5cfm, and the 48 tb flowed 2 cfm more than the 45, in practice your probably get a lot more than an additional 2cfm through the bigger body, but only if you bolt it to something better than a pinto head!







    i havnt got a picture here with the 48 body fitted, but with both the 45 and 48 they flowed slightly more air with the same 45mm ram pipe fitted than they did the plastoscene ring, but do i think a 48 ram pipe will help power, no i dont the differences here are very small
    Last edited by Graham; 20-01-2018 at 19:38.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    the theory was that if the induction system reduced airflow into the engine then a straighter manifold and slightly larger bodies would reduce that reduction







    on the face of it, it didnt work, despite proving that the manifold and bigger bodies are less restrictive give or take a fraction they are still reducing airflow by the same amount. that Felt like a failure until it dawned on me the head is flowing a lot more in the first place. ultimately though even though ive seen flow gains from the manifold and body swap, they are small and probably pointless on most applications the numbers suggest to me that the swap may only be worth 5bhp at best and thats on an engine which is over 200bhp in the first place


    a quick spot of resizing to suit the bigger TB's

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    I've once tested a DCOE manifold, DCOE style 45 ITB's against a purpose build 100% straight manifold with separate 45 ITB's and the gain in power was zero on my dyno. Was very frustrating because I was hoping to see 5 Bhp extra.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    I've once tested a DCOE manifold, DCOE style 45 ITB's against a purpose build 100% straight manifold with separate 45 ITB's and the gain in power was zero on my dyno. Was very frustrating because I was hoping to see 5 Bhp extra.
    well heres hoping the engine you tried it on wasnt as strong, and we do pick up some power, i think there will be a small gain simply because of airflow improvements. we wont know for sure because it wont because the engine spec is now different.

    several tuners over here do make straight manifolds, you would like to think they had a proven gain, but you never know.
    my only previous experience of one was on dazzles 2.2 pinto which made 200 bhp on an rl31 which was strong power for that cam even allowing for 2.2
    Last edited by Graham; 21-01-2018 at 19:46.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    I was at 193 Bhp out of 2 Ltr. The same engine we have used in rally with 45 DCOE 38mm chokes. We gained nothing with straight injection and also gained nothing when I switched from DCOE Webers to DCOE style ITB's. This was the first frustration. But all hopes where on straight manifold (because I thought this was the restriction) but no extra's. The same head made 210 Bhp later on a 2,3 Ltr short block.

    My friend once flowed with succes a Suzuki Hayabusa head. After fitting and dyno testing the head he lost power about everywhere and had to change back to standard head. He still don't know why but it seems like something else went wrong.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    well as i said heres hoping, we are starting where you finished, but it would of been better if you had said 180bhp.
    The thing is, if your pushing for the limits you have to try these things.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    That's correct, you have to try all and that's why these engine are going to be to expensive. People compare the price for a 170 Bhp Pinto with one of 190 Bhp but the work is most often double and if you stil want more, it's 10x more dyno work (and other work) for only 5 Bhp.

    In theory it seems to be so easy to find 1 extra Bhp for each cylinder. It would mean, you raise from 193 Bhp to 197 Bhp. But in practice, once you hit this wall it's so damm difficult to find 1 Bhp for all 4 cylinders. That's what I found out the hard way. At the end it's no longer affordable for a Pinto engine (and any engine unless someone give you an endless budget).

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Hey Graham
    I've just read through this whole thread and I have to say it was great to see everything you had done and the achievement, nice one
    Watching Pipe in his car going round Brands made me think of me doing Track days over here but only half as fast

    I've bought a SRD manifold for mine so will be able to see what improvement it gives to my engine.

    I keep questioning whether I need more power? Maybe a new Graham special??
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by dazzle View Post
    Hey Graham

    I keep questioning whether I need more power? Maybe a new Graham special??
    well its moved, although no where near as far as you have lol! but i still have that pinto engine i picked up for you. to get any significant gain from what you have now is going to need a steel crank to make a 2.4, you wont see a big increase in top end power, but you should see a good rise in torque and thats what really shoves you forward...............

  40. #238
    Racer Decade Plus User dazzle's Avatar

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    well its moved, although no where near as far as you have lol! but i still have that pinto engine i picked up for you. to get any significant gain from what you have now is going to need a steel crank to make a 2.4, you wont see a big increase in top end power, but you should see a good rise in torque and thats what really shoves you forward...............
    Maybe we need to start talking if you fancy it??...........
    Cheers

    Dazzle


  41. #239
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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    thats an expensive parcel to send

  42. #240
    Racer Decade Plus User dazzle's Avatar

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by alladdin View Post
    thats an expensive parcel to send
    Yep, I'd definitely need to work on that bit
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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