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Thread: Pipes pinto :)

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    I agree with the shape of the trumpets, something I discovered many moons ago on my silly looking dyno, long before anybody else was willing to believe the shape of the large radius trumpets where wrong. By that time, more and more company's just started to produce these shape of trumpets. Despite I did informed already. And they still advertise the part as a high performance part, at least better as a standard radius trumpet. Mayby it does work on very high rev'ing engines like F1 and motorcycles, but for sure not on Pinto's and all the other engines I've ever been working on.

    About Pinto's and inlet track length. Any real Pinto I had on my dyno made indeed better power and torque with trumpets we could never fit into the Escort chassis. There is still a very long inlet manifold available (and is also there for a very long time). Wondering these guys where miles ahead when they started to produce it.

    I've also back to back tested the Pinto with Weber "bent" shaped manifold compared to an absolute 1000 straight inlet manifold with 4x ITB but sadly, we did not found any real increase. Despite I was hoping for 5 Bhp. At that time we did not found ANY real advance fuel injection over Weber carbs also. The lines where running over each other everywhere. This does not automatic means, it can not be different in other engine setups. Sadly, here did not
    Last edited by Dyno; 10-11-2018 at 10:51.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    i wouldnt of thought so two reasons, your introducing a bend into the intake and secondly the shape of the jenvey trumpets is wrong! that might sound like a bold claim but back to back testing has shown the big wide radiused trumpets make less power than straight tubes with a simple 45 degree flare, which is probably why weber has been making them that shape for a gazillion years
    i remember you telling me about this when setting up my engine and what you said was spot on the straight trumpets they made a great improvement over the jenvey flared trumpets! Thanks for that gem of knowledge

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    My experience too on a Pinto, dyno'd lots of fancy bell mouths & rolled ends etc and the std weber ones work well
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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Once more an indication that most tuning parts where never ever correct tested.

    I just received news from Weber, they produce a new wire mesh trumpet. If you do want a device to fully destroy the good working action of a carburetor, buy a wire mesh trumpet !!!!

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    Once more an indication that most tuning parts where never ever correct tested.

    I just received news from Weber, they produce a new wire mesh trumpet. If you do want a device to fully destroy the good working action of a carburetor, buy a wire mesh trumpet !!!!
    yep been there tried them, agreed they trash the power!

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Did you ever find out if the improvements worked

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Turboman View Post
    Did you ever find out if the improvements worked
    yes and no, as usual down at T+R the mapping session was never finished, i wanted to swing the cam timing and play more with induction lengths, but they wouldnt let me. as its stands there was no real improvement in peak power, but midrange torque went up and i managed to move peak power and torque down the rev range by 1000 rpm

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Pity would be interesting to see if the development ideas worked in real life. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Turboman View Post
    Pity would be interesting to see if the development ideas worked in real life. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question
    one day it will get finished maybe, playing with the intake length i could make it hang on to the power a lot better, but it did loose top end power. what i really needed to do was try that in conjunction with a cam timing swing.

    moving the inlet valves over changed the valve timing compared to the original build, so i tried to compensate, but it may be i went the wrong way, especially as the cam timing was never optimized on the original build

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    its broke so its now in bits,

    https://youtu.be/T-ERmRtH4DI

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Great Video Graham.

    Nice Engine stats.

    Shame it did what it did.

    Would 93.50mm cure the bore problem?

    I know you're going for another block anyway, just wondered if 93.50 would clean the bore up enough?

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by rallyrob View Post
    Great Video Graham.

    Nice Engine stats.

    Shame it did what it did.

    Would 93.50mm cure the bore problem?

    I know you're going for another block anyway, just wondered if 93.50 would clean the bore up enough?
    i dont think it will clear at 93.5, but that would mean custom pistons anyway.
    Last edited by Graham; 20-10-2021 at 21:21.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    i dont think it will clear at 93.5, but that would mean custom pistons anyway.
    Would it, so you could get 94's but 93.5 would need to be custom?

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by rallyrob View Post
    Would it, so you could get 94's but 93.5 would need to be custom?
    yes i can get 94's, but dont want to push our luck on the bore size, especially as i have a spare set of 93's on the shelf

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Graham,
    could the cause be a worn (fatigue) valve-sping?
    W.r.t. the bouncing cambelt, seen that also on a race-Pinto many years ago. We made a idler-damper I think it was from a cambelt-adjuster and positioned that on the long end of the cambelt. Will have a look if I can find a photo of it.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    Graham,
    could the cause be a worn (fatigue) valve-sping?
    W.r.t. the bouncing cambelt, seen that also on a race-Pinto many years ago. We made a idler-damper I think it was from a cambelt-adjuster and positioned that on the long end of the cambelt. Will have a look if I can find a photo of it.
    i havnt stripped the head but i doubt its a valve spring as its had contact on all cylinders. what i dont know at this time is just how hard it was reved immediately before it broke, or if its been buzzed on a downshift(s) with corner where you need to drop a couple of gears its very easy to go down one gear too many on a sequential gearbox
    Last edited by Graham; 22-10-2021 at 19:12.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    i havnt stripped the head but i doubt its a valve spring as its had contact on all cylinders. what i dont know at this time is just how hard it was reved immediately before it broke, or if its been buzzed on a downshift(s) with corner where you need to drop a couple of gears its very easy to go down one gear too many on a sequential gearbox
    It could be just be a classic case of the inlet valves kissing until one of the valve heads falls off due to fatigue. A common problem with some NA Cosworth engines.
    Last edited by Forest_rallying; 22-10-2021 at 20:03.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    It could be just be a classic case of the inlet valves kissing until one of the valve heads falls off due to fatigue. A common problem with some NA Cosworth engines.
    i would say possible but unlikely. i feel something make them kiss, the engine had stacks of piston to valve clearance. remebering its got valve cutouts in the pistons and the head is a 1600 casting so its not been heavily skimmed, i checked clearance several times and last time i pulled the head off there was not a trace of it

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Old photo of "cambelt-damper" ; was made of an idler from a VW diesel mounted on a bracket.


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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    Old photo of "cambelt-damper" ; was made of an idler from a VW diesel mounted on a bracket.

    i must say having now first hand seen how the belt can whip around on the dyno i was giving thought to such a thing

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    updates, first ones a bit old,

    https://youtu.be/x74KiCVj0_c

    this one is latest

    https://youtu.be/xk4u8BNBTx8

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    sorry its short on technical info but heres the latest

    https://youtu.be/2FAEZHhZB14

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Always enjoy your videos Graham. You didn't give too much away with the head �� Is it the same one from this thread?

    Looking forward to seeing you put this one back together, now with the added help a dyno can bring

    Shaun

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)


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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Great video Graham, sounds mean! id say that would have no problem seeing 220 looking at the graphs with a cam with a bit more duration, excellent work
    I also expected the torque graph to be shocking bad on 40 chokes, looks good! any merit to trying a set of 48 DCO?

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    p.s manifold looks massive, they 45 or 50mm primaries? !

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by onecamohv View Post
    Great video Graham, sounds mean! id say that would have no problem seeing 220 looking at the graphs with a cam with a bit more duration, excellent work
    I also expected the torque graph to be shocking bad on 40 chokes, looks good! any merit to trying a set of 48 DCO?
    Id be gutted if i didnt see 220 with more cam, as a bit of fine tuning has already showed 219bhp and 191lbft.

    i do have some 48's i might try them once the cam is decided, TBH i dont think they will show much if any more, although thats academic as the car it runs injection anyway and will probably drop a few horse

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by onecamohv View Post
    p.s manifold looks massive, they 45 or 50mm primaries? !
    45, its an SRD manifold. on a 174bhp motor it works a bit better than an ashley 3 piece, but not as well as a small bore ashley 421. so pointless unless you really have big power

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    Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    Id be gutted if i didnt see 220 with more cam, as a bit of fine tuning has already showed 219bhp and 191lbft.

    i do have some 48's i might try them once the cam is decided, TBH i dont think they will show much if any more, although thats academic as the car it runs injection anyway and will probably drop a few horse
    Wow nice ! That is some result, your knocking on the door of what a works BDA was putting out in period..
    you could be seeing 228+ with more cam!

    I'm assuming now the real limitation of progress at this point is intake port flow?

    Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk

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    Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    45, its an SRD manifold. on a 174bhp motor it works a bit better than an ashley 3 piece, but not as well as a small bore ashley 421. so pointless unless you really have big power
    Yep seen that vid, bagged myself a small bore afterwards
    Do you think even on this 2.3 the small bore would out perform or at least match the SRD?

    Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by onecamohv View Post
    Yep seen that vid, bagged myself a small bore afterwards
    Do you think even on this 2.3 the small bore would out perform or at least match the SRD?

    Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk
    dont think so, on a 145 bhp the small bore was way better, 175 bhp it was a bit better, so i would imagine close on 220bhp the small bore doesnt stand a chance. the main reason we are using the srd is that it was actually developed to work with a big power engine

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Hi Graham great power what cfm would that head flow at .500 lift being a 1600 head for that power level cheers mario.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Hi Graham great power what cfm would that head flow at .500 lift being a 1600 head for that power level cheers mario.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by mariors2000 View Post
    Hi Graham great power what cfm would that head flow at .500 lift being a 1600 head for that power level cheers mario.
    I think the Man said said the head was a little secret so he might not want to start giving too much information away.

    OMV! I don’t think a 2.0 BDA would ever produce that sort of torque and power at them Rpm’s, it would be much higher up the scale.

    The power figures of this engine on the Dyno look as they could be ideal for a decent Rally engine with it’s P5 cam and 45 Weber’s. It will be interesting to what the results of the other cams are, but unless each cam’s going to be Lobe centred to the head you’re never going to get a true comparison and the best results out of the respective cams. Considering this engine’s going to be fitted in a Race Car I would be looking for a cam with a 102* lobe centre, or lobe separation angle as some like it to be called.

    I have brand new Lulabelle cam ground by Newman’s if you would like to try that in it Graham. Good luck with the tests, I await with interest.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    I think the Man said said the head was a little secret so he might not want to start giving too much information away.

    OMV! I don’t think a 2.0 BDA would ever produce that sort of torque and power at them Rpm’s, it would be much higher up the scale.

    The power figures of this engine on the Dyno look as they could be ideal for a decent Rally engine with it’s P5 cam and 45 Weber’s. It will be interesting to what the results of the other cams are, but unless each cam’s going to be Lobe centred to the head you’re never going to get a true comparison and the best results out of the respective cams. Considering this engine’s going to be fitted in a Race Car I would be looking for a cam with a 102* lobe centre, or lobe separation angle as some like it to be called.

    I have brand new Lulabelle cam ground by Newman’s if you would like to try that in it Graham. Good luck with the tests, I await with interest.
    yeah im afraid the head is on the secret list, all i will say is its pretty conventional, no welding, raised ports or anything that looks out of the ordinary! just a few different details

    its had a bit of fine tuning since that video, latest numbers are 191 lbft 219 bhp.
    Last edited by Graham; 04-07-2022 at 17:21.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    to cut a long story short, ive since tried several cams, ended up putting back in a newman P6. teh 45 webers made way for 48's which reduced torque a little but did push power and revs higher. its now on 48 ITB's and a DTA

    https://youtu.be/ubmiFtHP7hE

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    to cut a long story short, ive since tried several cams, ended up putting back in a newman P6. teh 45 webers made way for 48's which reduced torque a little but did push power and revs higher. its now on 48 ITB's and a DTA

    https://youtu.be/ubmiFtHP7hE
    Thats’s very interesting the final Power and Torque figures on injection, however what impresses me more is how good the figures were on the 45’s you tested, which makes me think most Pintos don’t need 48’s or even injection to make decent grunt.

    Your engine now’s knocking on the door of 100 Horse per litre, which must be getting towards the maximum Power the Pinto engine’s capable of on a conventional cylinder head. Even allowing for it being a 2.3 engine it’s again interesting that there’s no more power above 7.000 Rpm, which again could be getting to flow limits of the head. It certainly proves one thing that cam manufacturers are talking BS when they are advertising cams with power bands to 8.500 Rpm on Pintos. I remember reading an article written by Baker and he was on about the design of the head been the limiting factor.

    I know times are very busy but it would be interesting at sometime if you could share the results you got with the other cams that were tested.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    Thats’s very interesting the final Power and Torque figures on injection, however what impresses me more is how good the figures were on the 45’s you tested, which makes me think most Pintos don’t need 48’s or even injection to make decent grunt.

    Your engine now’s knocking on the door of 100 Horse per litre, which must be getting towards the maximum Power the Pinto engine’s capable of on a conventional cylinder head. Even allowing for it being a 2.3 engine it’s again interesting that there’s no more power above 7.000 Rpm, which again could be getting to flow limits of the head. It certainly proves one thing that cam manufacturers are talking BS when they are advertising cams with power bands to 8.500 Rpm on Pintos. I remember reading an article written by Baker and he was on about the design of the head been the limiting factor.

    I know times are very busy but it would be interesting at sometime if you could share the results you got with the other cams that were tested.
    i had installed 40mm chokes in the 45's, whether that gave any more power than 38's would of given i dont know, but seeing as i wasn't worried anything below 4000rpm i figured for my testing purposes it would be ok, infact i dont think that given the power the chokes were actually too big for the 45s as i ended up on a 175 mains, which pretty close to what the 48's needed on 42 chokes.

    i could make it rev on further with more radical cams but they lost torque and didnt increase top end power, i will try and sort some comparisons sometime, although doing 4 cam swaps back to back meant there wasnt much time for making notes.

    i did all the cam swaps on the 45's, i got a bit of a surprise when i moved to the 48's on a short straight intake manifold, because i picked up 7bhp going to the 48's, mainly because it revved on better, so would a cam swap worked better on the 48's? i dont know, but for sure if you were rallying the loss of torque was not worth the 6-7 bhp top end gain.

    initially the injection pretty much exactly matched the power curve of the 48's but that was on the map for the old engine spec, 2 days later when i was able to remap the DTA i got close to the torque curve of the 45's with no loss of top end.

    next i set about playing with ram pipe length, incidentally its using 48 jenveys and 45mm ram pipes because emerald dont make adjustable trumpets for 48's, by going about an inch shorter than the weber dcoe ram pipes i picked up torque through most of the curve. and ended up with the torque of the 45's and power of the 48's.

    incidentally going longer still on the ram pipes had the same effect as more radical cams, it revved on more, but no more power so pointless.

    im quite happy it only needs to go to 7K its more likely to stay in one piece, and upchanges drop the motor back to peak torque

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Hi Graham great power did you get the same power with the 48 throttle body and with the 48mm Webber carbys cheers mario.

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    Re: Pipes pinto :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    It certainly proves one thing that cam manufacturers are talking BS when they are advertising cams with power bands to 8.500 Rpm on Pintos.
    No it doesn't. How on earth can you conclude that if one engine especially being a 2.3 gives it max bhp around 7000 rpm there is no (other) cam / engine combo that will give max power over 8000 rpm?

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