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Thread: Pipes pinto :)

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    Pipes pinto :)

    i

    ive been shopping! another pinto, this ones a bit serious though. its going in a race car, so sorry im not going to give everything away.

    its mainly a conventional build, although there are a few twists and the odd tweek that i defiantly wont be posting.
    the brief i have given myself is powerfull and as bullet proof as possible within my budget, its a pretty healthy budget, but none the less there is a budget..

    in the name of power without having to rev the arse of it im going large, 2337cc to be precise.
    thats 93x86, yes i could of gone bigger in capacity, but thats part of the safe aspect, not to push the envelope, and why ive not gone for 94mm bore or an 88mm crank.
    despite a the long stroke im keen it still revs, so have some low compression height pistons intended for 136mm rods on a std crank. obviously with the 86mm crank the long rods would shove the pistons way out the top of the block, so im having a set of rods made to suit, the very short pistons will give me a healthy rod length of 131.5mm quite a bit up from a std pinto rod which is 127

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Interesting, what's your thoughts on 136mm rods/short pistons on std stroke pintos? I'm using them in my new engine??

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    the theory is good, never tried it myself, but a do know when the same has been done to a bmw m10 engine which is actually quite similar to a pinto there are no power gains, now that may be because something else such as the cam needs changing to make it work, or even possibly where you have poor cylinder filling a shorter rod gives greater piston acceleration and thus a bigger gulp of air, which more than counters reduced friction or teh benifits of slower piston acceration i dont know.

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Brill will be watching this one

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Fek yeah!

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Can't wait to see how this build goes all your builds I have seen so far work brilliantly when finished!

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    the theory is good, never tried it myself, but a do know when the same has been done to a bmw m10 engine which is actually quite similar to a pinto there are no power gains, now that may be because something else such as the cam needs changing to make it work, or even possibly where you have poor cylinder filling a shorter rod gives greater piston acceleration and thus a bigger gulp of air, which more than counters reduced friction or teh benifits of slower piston acceration i dont know.
    My thoughts were reduced wear and a quicker revving engine due to altered rod ratio and lighter piston, I have heard that you get increased slap with them when cold....will report back once I've tested it.....had a long conversation with Steve Curson and Vulcan re them and he said that on the dyno they saw no obvious power gains but the test engines did seem alot freer revving.

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    My thoughts were reduced wear and a quicker revving engine due to altered rod ratio and lighter piston, I have heard that you get increased slap with them when cold....will report back once I've tested it.....had a long conversation with Steve Curson and Vulcan re them and he said that on the dyno they saw no obvious power gains but the test engines did seem alot freer revving.
    interesting, that backs up what was found with the bmw engine.

    re slap, i believe but havnt checked, that the gudgen pins are not offset which would increase slap,

    in this case with the stroked crank although the rod is longer than std the rod/stroke ratio will be far better than most stroker set ups which use std rods with shortened pistons, these pistons are very short due to the use of x/flow/bda size pins
    Last edited by Graham; 12-12-2013 at 20:26.

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Click image for larger version Name:	image.jpg Views:	1754 Size:	112.5 KB ID:	66898
    The gudgeon pins on my short pistons (Wossner) look central.....there were no arrows on the showing direction of rotation anyway....before the crowns were machined.
    I thought a std pinto didn't have offset pins?? most modern valves do I know that.
    I guess the altered rod ratio coupled with less force on the thrust side of the bore and a shorter piston could give more piston slap although you would have thought if that was the case an offset pin would be the answer??? who knows.

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    off set pins is nothing new std pinto certainly are offset. the offset will only be about 1.5mm, so you need to meassure to be sure but lack of markings showing direction suggest your pistons dont have an offset.

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    The pistons came from Vulcan already machined, the valve reliefs are for the inlets so the pistons could only be fitted in one direction, I plan on building another engine soon as a bit of a project/spare engine doing some of the machining myself offshore at work, I'm going to send Wossner an email tomorrow asking if their Pinto pistons have an offset pin. I did consider a long stroke Pinto at one point but the regs for hill climbing kept me below 2040cc to be competitive, that Volvo engine on here sounded appealing.

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Will follow this built !

    (Graham, when will you built a big crossflow ? Love to see that one day ...)

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    I think he's toying with us. I'm waiting for pictures of the cylinder head...

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by racing escort View Post
    Will follow this built !

    (Graham, when will you built a big crossflow ? Love to see that one day ...)
    Tried to talk him into doing mine, but he wasn't having it


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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Damn, still a popular engine the X/flow in my opinion!
    No time or ....

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    He is to busy doing pintos and wouldn't get it done before the 2014 season starts


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    Re: 2337 pinto

    . ive nothing against an x/flow, i just havnt had much demand, the last one i built was in 1991!

    my current workload is a couple of pintos, a vw 16v rally car engine to pull out rebuild to 200bhp and refit on a emerald with ITB's. on top of a full time job. i simply dont have time to do an x/flow, come april when ive left my job and have to find 40K a year overheads it might be another story!

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Ill be interested if you do find the time to do a crossflow
    Hexham and District Motorclub

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Keeping an eye on this build for sure. Awesome.

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    interesting read, i use to build formula ford 1600 x/flow engines a few moons back,working for a well known engine builder and now and then a ff2000 pinto would come in for rebuild, and one of the tweeks was to run the offset on the std piston round the wrong way,It was suppose to be a well known tweek with the ff2000 worth 3hp on the dyno,how true it is i dont know.
    Graham what compression you thinking of running,rick

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Another one to look forward too and to learn from , knew you wouldn't share all your secrects the day you said you were going self employed though
    its not dead till it's buried!


    T.I.T engineering. "Feel the power!"

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    compression over 11:1 but not as high as 12, the large capacity will mean the dynamic compression will be higher than a 2.0 using the same cam and cr.

    the beauty of the big capacity also being the compression ratio using a std 2.0 head is about 11.5 without skimming anything off, although i may mod the chamber and skim anyway

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    It`ll be interesting to see what Cam will work best in the 2.3 Engine, GTS 4 maybe?


    Good luck with your new Buisness venture in April Graham!

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    It`ll be interesting to see what Cam will work best in the 2.3 Engine, GTS 4 maybe?


    Good luck with your new Buisness venture in April Graham!
    cheers im undecided at the moment, as a circuit racing motor it doesnt need as wide a powerband as a rally car, the actual cam may depend on how negotiation with cam companies goes as im looking to supply cams, first thoughts were p5/p6 HT1 (not HT1E because it doesnt rev as well) second thoughts RC31

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    good reliable engine is a bigger factor,

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by rick deregus View Post
    good reliable engine is a bigger factor,
    very true my friend

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    It always amazes me the knowledge there is on this site :

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    cheers im undecided at the moment, as a circuit racing motor it doesnt need as wide a powerband as a rally car, the actual cam may depend on how negotiation with cam companies goes as im looking to supply cams, first thoughts were p5/p6 HT1 (not HT1E because it doesnt rev as well) second thoughts RC31
    I'm currently building a new 2,3 ltr as well, only longer rods. I'm going to reuse the Vulcan head from the 2 Ltr, including the HT1e cam. The HT1e was slightly over the top for the 2 ltr (rally engine). I hope it's a better match for a 2,3 ltr (low down torque was not OK on the 2 ltr, should be better with the 2,3 ltr anyway). I will let you know the results.

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    I'm currently building a new 2,3 ltr as well, only longer rods. I'm going to reuse the Vulcan head from the 2 Ltr, including the HT1e cam. The HT1e was slightly over the top for the 2 ltr (rally engine). I hope it's a better match for a 2,3 ltr (low down torque was not OK on the 2 ltr, should be better with the 2,3 ltr anyway). I will let you know the results.
    that will be interesting, were certainly thinking along similar lines.

    no offense to vulcan as there head seems to work as well or better than most, but i do believe that without resorting to radical mods such as welding or drastic port mods i could do better

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    The Vulcan head gave, just as all other more expensive heads I bought until date, good figures. But nothing special. Or at least not the power some other seems to measure on there Pinto's. Nor was the Dave Brook welded and raised inlet port any better. Vulcan quoted 190 Bhp, 193 Bhp I measured. All others where quoted a lot higher but power was the same. I'm still waiting for a better head. Offers welcome. I feel only down draught head can be a real gain but I can be wrong. I'm not a Pinto head expert.

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Hi i hate to say ive heard it all but lol, i think its a bigger package than a cylinder head,ive seen this special cylinder head,and that special head,ive seen top engine builders sitting on grids cuddling race engines talking to them like there alive wtf lol, ive seen ultra powerfull engines that cost thousands of pounds run a 12 race championship and at the end of the season they had 10 DNF,S watching the race from the Marshall point,ive seen blokes pay engine builders extra money for a special engine,and come in after the qualifying lap way down the grid,and then they say i cant drive that car its to fast it scares me,one dyno reads 100 bhp more than another lol,is the car being built for do nuts or winning championships,then again best engine in the world going in a shed of a car there's so many different aspects to look at to win races,we can all make cakes but whose cake taste the nicest,,,please dont read this as a negative post its the way my head ticks to winning championships,the proof is in the pudding lol

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    i wouldnt argue with a word of what you said there.

    1st it needs to be very strong, 2nd it needs to stay in one piece, 3rd it needs to give good power.
    in this instance the engine will be a substantial upgrade in terms of power and torque from what the driver had before, it will be some time before he and the car are dialed in and can make full use of it, and thats assuming the engine is only average!

    so no im not trying for ultimate, it all too often ends up in tears, as i said at the start of the thread the engine could of had an 88mm stroke and or a 94mm bore giving over 100cc more which should give more power, but im working on the basis i dont want to push the boundaries, for that reason there wont be any welding or downdraft ports, extreme cams, extreme anything for that matter. that can all be tried later

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Back in the Nineties there was a Race Championship called the Vecta Fast Ford challenge. One of the Cars competing was a Dark Green Mk2 Escort sponsered by Emerald Cams. The Engine was a 2.4 Pinto and built by Dave Walker I think.

    This Car was one of the best handling and Powerful Cars I have seen to this day considering it was powered by a Pinto Engine. The Driver was called Russ Clarke and he would often beat the likes of Paul Bailey with his RS 500 Turbo Engined RS 2000.

    I remember been overtaken by him at a RS Owners Club day on the main straight at Donnington Park, I was amassed at the speed of this Car as I was in a 230 Bhp Normally Aspirated Cosworth Engined Rally Car. It`s all about having the right Tools for the right Job, if you can build an Engine like that Car had in and the rest of the Car`s up to scratch then you are on to a winner Graham!

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Back in the Nineties there was a Race Championship called the Vecta Fast Ford challenge. One of the Cars competing was a Dark Green Mk2 Escort sponsered by Emerald Cams. The Engine was a 2.4 Pinto and built by Dave Walker I think.
    i remember, and have often talked to dave about those days. the emerald car actually had a short stroke 2.1, back then they all claimed 230bhp, dave told me the best they actually had was 215, which in later years he discovered was the same as all the rest of the front runners, despite claims of more.

    as he likes talking about the good old days and likes the fact i play with old boat anchors and my diy have a go attitude, he has told me a fair bit about stuff they tried, and how a lot of things that should of worked did not,im also know one of his "secrets" and have a mod of my own to try in conjuction with it, i smiled when i told dave and he said it was something they had never tried

    what we have talked about is how none of the really radical port mods seem to work as they should of, for instance he found a away to get a 2 inch, yes 2 inch, which is 52mm inlet valve in a head, it flowed more than the usual 44mm valve, but the engine made no more power, that says to me theres something else other than a poor inlet port design holding it back.

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Well that`s interesting reading, everyone at the time was under the impression that the Dave Walker Engine was a 2,4, that just goes to show you how good the package was.

    That`s one Big Hole a 52mm Inlet valve. how did he overcome valve shrouding? I wonder what size the Exhaust one was?

    Keep us all informed of your progress, we don`t want to steal your ideas, we just want to see more Power out of the Pinto Engine. 230 BHP?

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    it was ht that had the 2.4. tbh ive never seen a power plot for a 2.3/2.4 that makes significantly bigger horse power numbers than 2.0/2.1

    i dont like talking numbers, but 230 is a nice figure, judging by my own results with a big cc 8 valve 4 pot in the beemer, if i can get 230bhp we will be able to worry all but the most powerfull 16v motors

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    that will be interesting, were certainly thinking along similar lines.

    no offense to vulcan as there head seems to work as well or better than most, but i do believe that without resorting to radical mods such as welding or drastic port mods i could do better
    Steve's heads are built to a price and a reasonable one at that, if you want something fancier he will do one for you, they produce the goods and when you weigh the competition....ie. Dave Brookes, CNC, JRE etc....the produce very similar results for half the price......cracking guy to deal with too, he does all my machining work for me, up in Scotland there are many decent builders...Agra etc. but i pay the extra £70 for a pallet and send all my machining work down to Vulcan, they dont exagerate HP figures like many others do also. If your doing a head yourself then time is not an issue, its always the battle, i, unfortunately do not have the knowledge or experience to do a good head.....im learning though and have another project Pinto that im doing all the head work on myself, i know the principles and theory being a Process/Mech Engineer.....im just shit with a die grinder.

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    Please don't get me wrong, I've never say the Vulcan head is not good. Also not about the other heads. Opposite, the head performs exact as all others and I'm going to use it again on my 2,3 ltr (because I do feel it's a good head). Others quoted over 200 bhp, Vulcan 190 bhp. And that's about what they all gave in the same configuration. Let us say, these are all good heads but it's unfortunately all the Pinto head has to offer. No matter what you try, welding, raising etc... (not even the 52mm valve ?)

    I had a full race cylinderhead from Dave Walker (time he was still writing in "cars and cars conversions"). The head engine made 193 Bhp out of a 93mm bore, 80 mm stroke Pinto (diesel rod setup). I was using a Crane Cam like suggested in the Dave Vizard book. Please note this was round 1999. Today with better cams and more knowledge I feel I can get more out of this kind of heads.

    Like Graham say, it's something else holding it back. And maybe changing to downdraught can open this door. No idea.

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    I think if i were to improve on my current set up rather than go to the expense of a raised port head.....roller cam set up etc. i would just throttle body and map it properly, even without any max power torque increase the benefits would by far outweigh the fancy fancy head option, if i wanted to go further then obviously i would combine both.....but....then what you get into is that there are other engines that can produce the goods more easily than a pinto, Volvo, BMW etc. being good examples.

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    Re: 2337 pinto

    i argee with all.

    ultimatly in this instance the only engine options are 2.0 n/a yb, a megga buck bda or a good ole big cc pinto, pinto is actually the cheapest option, and whilst it will be a bit down on power compared to a big buck n/a yb or a fair bit on an all bells and whistles bd, the extra torque will in some way compensate, and its likely to live longer than the others!

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