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Thread: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

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    building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Hi . Im on with a Mexico rebuild and have a couple of choices for engines, I have a freshly built standard 2.0 / 205 block running on twin 40"s, I have never driven with this engine but bought it from a friend and he said it run really well its all set up ready to drop in.

    however I have also bought a big valve head spec [ Inlet: 44.5mm Exhaust 38.1mm, Cam: Burton road/rally 2700-7500 BLF 40/41, Double valve springs and vernier pulley.] and I have bought a pair of twin 45"s to run with this head. measuring the head it appears to have been skimmed compared to a standard head.

    original thoughts were just fit the head to my 2.0 engine and see how it went however I am unsure if the bottom end has had any work, (my pal bought the engine fitted to a new built westfield kitcar so is unsure how much work was done to it) I dont know how strong the pinto standard bottom end is and if the spec of head I have will need the bottom end beefing up ? so I was debating if i should just fit the 2.0 engine short term and buying a second 2.0 pinto block and getting it stripped and built and bored to 2.1 while I was on with some bottom end work.

    just looking for any advice if anyone has built something similar spec, how far would you go with the bottom end and would it be worth going to 2.1 and any ideas on what sort of power/torque differences I would get on both set ups using my head/cam and well set up 45"s .

    thanks in advance Jeff.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    a pinto bottom end has two main weaknesses, std rods wont like 7500 rpm, and std type cast pistons wont cope with compressions of 11.1 or more and the ring lands will have a short life using 7500rpm..

    so to make proper use of that cam you need to uprate rods and pistons.

    in my opinion the 2.1 thing is very overrated. its a 5% capacity increase which on a really strong fast road mild competition engine might add 7bhp or so over a 2.0, i say might, because ive never seen a similar spec 2.1 make more power than the 2.0 i normally stick to.
    Last edited by Graham; 04-01-2014 at 10:06.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    If I Were you I would Give the Big Valve Head a try on your Std Bottom End if it`s in good condition, I don`t see the point on spending a fortune on Forged Pistons and Steel Rods unless you want an all out competition Engine. You might want to double dowel the Flywheel to stop it coming adrift, you could also get it lightened at the same time. For another 80 odd CC its not worth the hassle of going 2.1 on 93mm bores in my
    opinion.

    A Burton BLF 40/41 is a very old Cam profile of the late 70s with a lot of duration, your money might be better spent on something like an RL 31 profile with higher lift and less duration.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    thanks for the replies , I should have said this is going to be a road car with the odd trackday thrown in , I just wanted a bit more grunt without ideally spending heaps of money I would be setting a limiter at 7,000 rpm , only experience I have of these engines is a friend runs a 2.1 175bhp pinto in a westfield and sticking to 7,000rpm limit it has been 100% reliable in the 11 years its been in his car and its used 100% on track and it does get some abuse! pretty sure the donor engine had done 125,000 miles prior to fitting it which gives me a bit of faith, he has had a fair bit skimmed from his head I believe and the block decked for the pistons but I am unsure on what compression ratio he is running , I think he said he has a balanced crank but was using standard rods and V6 pistons which I am presuming are stronger ?
    Last edited by Jeff Cooper; 04-01-2014 at 10:31.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    v6 pistons are not stronger but give 2.1, they are shorter than pinto pistons hense block skim.

    if you stick to 7000rpm you should be ok, if the head has had about 1mm off it your compression will be around 10.25:1 and will be ok with cast pistons

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    the head measures 93.8mm, from what I can find standard head 94.9mm ?

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    Glad you found your way over Jeff .
    There are a few very good threads on here regarding pinto builds,cams, etc. have a good read when you get 5 min.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Max 10.5 .1 on good quality std Pistons with correct Fuel and Ignition should n`t be a problem. 7000 Rpm with the occasional 7,500 should be ok. It`s amazing what these Engines will stand if correctly put together. We ran them for years on Road Rallies in the 80s and they had very good reliability.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Cooper View Post
    the head measures 93.8mm, from what I can find standard head 94.9mm ?
    Jeff, std head is 94.49 mm. For your spec engine (std bottom end) have a look at the Kent GTS1 cam. Good luck, Leon.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    thanks for the input, so with under a mm off the head I should be ok to bolt onto my 2.0 bottom end,as said Im just looking for a bit more power not looking for the last drop out the engine, to save me trawling through old posts can anyone tell me the nature of the cam I have , is it going to have poor bottom end driveabilty ?

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Cooper View Post
    thanks for the input, so with under a mm off the head I should be ok to bolt onto my 2.0 bottom end,as said Im just looking for a bit more power not looking for the last drop out the engine, to save me trawling through old posts can anyone tell me the nature of the cam I have , is it going to have poor bottom end driveabilty ?
    I had a 40/41 in a road engine a few years ago....it pulled from about 2750 but I reckon due to the long duration it needed alot of compression to work well, I switched to an FR33 later on, if the cam you have is in good condition I would use it, although an older profile it will still work.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    I ran a 2.1 with an FR32 for a while and visited 7,500 here and there
    ARP flywheel bolts, single dowl pin and ARP co rod bolts help
    Track days on long tracks may push your rods at 7,500 rpm but many survive this for years
    I would suggest you'll be ok

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    rack days on long tracks may push your rods at 7,500 rpm but many survive this for years
    very true but sooner or later they let go, and most likely when you lift off at the end of the straight as 7500 and a shut throttle put massive loads on them

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    I have always said if a std Bottom end eventually lets go and it`s cost you £500 it`s not the end of the World but if you have spent a Fortune on Steel Components then it is.

    Back in the 90s I put all my savings into a NA Cosworth with the famous M Alloy Block. The first event I did with it was a disaster. it Dropped a Valve, the head went through the top of the Piston and the Web of the Crank Spit it out of the side of the Block. The Engine was more or less Scrap.

    That`s why now I advice people to keep a lot of their Engine components Std, Mr Ford tested his components a lot more than a lot of these so called specialists, even though they might seem a bit puny.

    Give it a try, you have nothing to loose.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    A Burton BLF 40/41 is a very old Cam profile of the late 70s with a lot of duration, your money might be better spent on something like an RL 31 profile with higher lift and less duration.
    Exactly what I was thinking


    @Jeff

    You can run 10.5 to 1 with cast pistons and your std rods or better still forged pistons and 11.3 to 1 with RL31

    The std rods won't like 7500rpm with super heavy cast pistons as they all are, but if you use Wossner forged pistons and injection rods with ARP bolts I feel that 7500rpm can be used reliably for 2 years competition use, the wossner pistons come in many different sizes, 2.1 will add more low end punch and around 5bhp top end but it is not worth it unless you want every last lb/ft, the block will be useless afterwards where as if you go 91.5 or 92mm then there are a few rebores left

    Wossner forged pistons will weigh around 470g and cast pistons are near 700g both with rings and pins (off the top of my head but I am sure this is quite close)

    A 33% reduction in piston weight might not sound like much but it takes a LOT of pressure off the rods at high rpm

    If you take the square root of 33% that equals 5.74%, that weight reduction will give approximately 5.74% more rpm's with the lighter pistons (conservative estimate) or looking at it another way if we still use 7500rpm as the safe limit with lightweight forged pistons then it is like revving a cast piston and rod combination to 7100rpm, which is a safe reliable limit for std rods and pistons with ARP bolts, the light forged pistons make 7500rpm a heck of a lot safer than using cast pistons and the same max rpm

    All of this is if you are a hard driver keeping the engine up in the revs all the time, a fast road engine for example can take brief bursts to higher rpm's and last for a very long time but that doesn't compare to a rally or race engine getting big rpm's all the time

    I say go for RL31 cam, Wossner pistons, 11.3 to 1 and Inj rods + ARP bolts - best budget rebuild for better performance

    Or, 10.5 to 1 with the std bottom end (if it has low miles and still sealing well) and try your best to break it - cheap and cheerful if the bores are still good

    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Back in 1983 I Bought a brand new Gp1 Pinto Short Motor from a dealer that had bought a small batch from Ford, I paid £280 for it.

    The spec was Maharle cast Pistons honed a few thou keeping it under 2000cc, stronger Rods which turned out to be Injection Rods, std Crank, Oil Pump and fitted with a Tin sump.

    We fitted a Head that was nearly std, skimmed with the Compression no more than 10.1, the Cam was a Boreham WR40 and fitted with a single Weber 45 DCOE.

    We had it on the Rollers many times to try a cure a mid range flat spot caused by a poor Inlet Manifold design, the best Power we ever saw was a miserable 116 BHP at the Wheels, most other Competitors Cars were reputedly giving 128+.

    That little Engine was one best I have ever had, regularly seeing 7500 and sometimes a good bit more, it would literally Rev until the Cows came Home.

    That £280 was the best money I have ever spent in nearly 39 years of Motorsport, it was so reliable it was untrue and it was all down to that new bottom end.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Btw, is Mahle cast pistons still available, if not what is the best commercially available brand ?

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Karl Schimdt pistons are used by F2 stock car engine builders, apparently the best cast pistons for high comp use.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    yes cast mahles are still available

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Thank you Erikmex,
    Thank you Graham,

    Where should I look for both brands ?

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    I think John Read Engines (JRE) list them on their website.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Here you go....
    http://www.jreracingproducts.com/web...tt-piston-set/

    Anderson race engines, Redline racing, Randall etc will all supply good quality cast pistons, F2 stock car regs limit you to cast and they run 11.5:1 ish.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Many thanks.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    I think that really all the Pinto cast pistons are pretty poor quality vs other engines, most STi/WRX engines use cast pistons would you believe it, with oil holes in the piston for the oil control ring instead of a very big slot machined each side of the pin bosses, the boxer has near 280bhp with cast pistons, forged is way better but there is no high quality cast Pinto piston imho

    Since all of them have large slots machined for oil control the best piston imho is Mahle since some of them have a thinner top ring, the ring lands are the weakest point of any cast piston, thinner rings place less pressure on the ring lands at high rpm

    KS are said to be made from aluminium with a high silicon content, but they have very heavy rings 2mm top and second iirc and will break if given enough rpm's and compression/combustion pressure

    The limits of the pinto cast pistons are really 7000rpm and 10.5 to 1 for best reliability, however they are quite heavy vs forged, even for fast road budget permitting I would use forged
    Last edited by RWD fords rule; 09-01-2014 at 21:18.
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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    I've used Wossners in my pinto......I've used them for years in my motocross bikes too......with 14:1 compression and no problems.......F2 stock car engines often let go due to ring lands breaking up although I've known a few engines that rev past 7700 with 11.5:1+ compression and had no problems for a couple of seasons.....short circuit use though with very short periods at high rpms.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    There are sellers on E Bay advertising KS and Mahle Pistons.

    My opinion`s for a Fast Road Engine Cast Pistons will do the Job adequately providing you have sensible Compression and correct Ignition and Fueling. For an all out Competition Engine it has to be Forged Pistons and Steel Rods. At the end of the day it`s all down to Budget and what we can afford, is Motorsport worth getting into Debt for?

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Quote Originally Posted by RWD fords rule View Post
    I think that really all the Pinto cast pistons are pretty poor quality vs other engines, most STi/WRX engines use cast pistons would you believe it, with oil holes in the piston for the oil control ring instead of a very big slot machined each side of the pin bosses, the boxer has near 280bhp with cast pistons, forged is way better but there is no high quality cast Pinto piston imho

    Since all of them have large slots machined for oil control the best piston imho is Mahle since some of them have a thinner top ring, the ring lands are the weakest point of any cast piston, thinner rings place less pressure on the ring lands at high rpm

    KS are said to be made from aluminium with a high silicon content, but they have very heavy rings 2mm top and second iirc and will break if given enough rpm's and compression/combustion pressure

    The limits of the pinto cast pistons are really 7000rpm and 10.5 to 1 for best reliability, however they are quite heavy vs forged, even for fast road budget permitting I would use forged
    Hello Jason,

    I have the same opinion when it comes to combo of std. Rods and heavy cast pistons if the engine is going to be revved often beyond 7200 rpm. Especially even if it is going to be built with a camshaft which may promote higher than the mentioned rpms. Rods have been the weakest part in this engine for sure. However, for a rather budget build ( mild competition engine ) I imagine the std.rod and lighter forged piston may work to a certain extend if revs are strictly kept under control. The problem is even forged pistons especially the Accralites are not light for the std. rod and due to the required CH, I do not think they can be mass produced unless they are custom made with the latest design etc.
    On the other hand, it seems that Mahle is still superior to KS since Mahle's top ring is thinner ( 1,6 mm vs 2.0 mm ).

    Best Regards,

    Kerem

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    thanks all for the input, I have gone for the cheaper option of popping the BVH straight onto my 2.0 block, will see how it goes, to be honest I havnt really driven the car so would make more sense to go this route in case I drive it once and decide its not for me (really doubt that!)

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    That`s a very sensible move.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    can anyone advise on what fuel pump I should use for this set up?

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Facet redtop and a Filterking regulator.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    thanks thats what I thought I have used a facet in the past on red top Vauxhall engines but the standard 2.0 pinto engine I bought had the twin 40"s supplied by the mechanical fuel pump which threw me a bit

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Cooper View Post
    thanks thats what I thought I have used a facet in the past on red top Vauxhall engines but the standard 2.0 pinto engine I bought had the twin 40"s supplied by the mechanical fuel pump which threw me a bit
    then you can bet your bottom dollar it didnt make more than 145bhp tops

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    then you can bet your bottom dollar it didnt make more than 145bhp tops

    yeh was pretty much standard with 40"s think was 118bhp

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    I've used Wossners in my pinto......I've used them for years in my motocross bikes too......with 14:1 compression and no problems.......F2 stock car engines often let go due to ring lands breaking up although I've known a few engines that rev past 7700 with 11.5:1+ compression and had no problems for a couple of seasons.....short circuit use though with very short periods at high rpms.
    A top f2 engine is geared to pull 8300rpm!! round cowdenbeath

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turboman View Post
    A top f2 engine is geared to pull 8300rpm!! round cowdenbeath
    Yep, but for short periods.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Yep, but for short periods.
    Yes but the main stress on the engine is when it gets to the end of the straight and they lift off. Every pinto book I have ever seen says that the revs and compression can't be archived using std parts

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turboman View Post
    Yes but the main stress on the engine is when it gets to the end of the straight and they lift off. Every pinto book I have ever seen says that the revs and compression can't be archived using std parts
    Stress on the rods when lifting off yes....my last Pinto blew up when lifting off from 7500rpm, but breaking up ring lands usually happens at max revs when cyl pressures are at the highest, race engines sustain higher rpm's for longer than F2 engines, an F2 engine wouldnt last long around knockhill in an Escort.

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Stress on the rods when lifting off yes....my last Pinto blew up when lifting off from 7500rpm, but breaking up ring lands usually happens at max revs when cyl pressures are at the highest, race engines sustain higher rpm's for longer than F2 engines, an F2 engine wouldnt last long around knockhill in an Escort.

    Maybe but most failures I have seen in pintos for oval racing is Conrod failure due to metal fatigue

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    Re: building a pinto 2.0 or 2.1 with bvh and cam advice please ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turboman View Post
    Maybe but most failures I have seen in pintos for oval racing is Conrod failure due to metal fatigue
    Yeah and too high revs even for injection rods that are only really good for 7500

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