User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 86

Thread: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

  1. #1
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    After reading countless (mostly incorrect) posts on countless forums about how the secretive VVT on the Ford ST170 works, and how different methods of control with systems that can't really control it properly effect the power, we took it upon ourselves to create a standalone, mappable VVT controller specifically for the ST170 Zetec engine...


    First lets first get some recorded, proven facts out there, all research carried out by us, on the dyno:





    1. The solenoid is driven by 12v (switched via PWM to ground).
    2. The cam swings approximately 45 degrees, and rests 'fully retarded'.
    3. It is controlled by the Ford ECU.
    4. Simply driving it with a PWM freq. will not work as oil pressure/temp/wear etc will effect the VVT valves flow, and hence cam position.
    5. The Ford ECU monitors the cam position in relation to the crank position and then uses a PID control loop to Adjust the PWM duty to reach the desired cam angle, looked up in a map that is defined AT LEAST by RPMxLOAD.
    6. VVT actuation does not begin until at least 1300 RPM.


    With this in mind, we devised our controller, and the hardware and cam/crank decoding algorithms so we could track the position of the cams relative to each other. Then we did a few runs on the dyno, and the graphs can be seen below:


    The following shows CAM ANGLE in relation to CRANK (240* is resting, fully advanced is approx 180*) as RPM increases from 1500 to 7000... very interesting...





    What is worth noting is that control strategies such as 'turning the VVT solenoid fully on at 1500rpm' or other such bodges are NOT going to give the results that are needed. The cam is clearly shown to fully advance and then begin to taper back as RPM increases, with some other points we have decided for now to keep to ourselves


    With this in mind it is clear to see that our system delivers higher torque at ALL points in the rev range as we can precisely position the cam (and map it to other modifications such as exhaust and intake etc) and get THE best from the engine, and not compromise with a simple 'RPM switch point'.


    Stay tuned for some more info!





    Part 2: On the Dyno Again....


    So now we return to the rollers, this time we are going to do some definitive testing showing what is what. We are using for this our basic OEM St170 Focus bought for this project, so lets start with a base run in OEM configuration, note the horsepower... no people your ST170 is not and never was 170bhp...

    For all graphs, OEM is in GREEN and the changed/test run is in RED. The dotted line relates to the right axis (torque) and the other line relates to flywheel horsepower (left axis)




    Fig 1: OEM VVT Control vs VVT OFF (Fully Retarted/resting position)


    As can be seen in Fig 1, there is massive lack of power across the rev range with some losses of torque in the region of 50 lbs/ft... so that's obviously a NO GO method of setting up your VVT.


    The next, and very common method is to use a programmable output on your ECU and turn the VVT on fully at a defined RPM, in this case we are going to go for the 'forum accepted' RPM of 2250:



    Fig 2: Turning the VVT solenoid fully on at 2250rpm.


    This going to cost a little over 5 for a relay and of course an ECU that can do it as well as a bit of wiring, but ok, so this time we get something a little better... sort of...


    We lack torque at the get go, and generally we see a lack of power getting proportionately worse as RPM increases... so we get rubbish peak power, and an almost OEM bottom end torque... not the best compromise, but the most chosen one when tuning ST170s...


    So what else can we do without a mappable VVT Controller? Well, we can choose to lock the cams mechanically at a set point, some say 22* advance, some say 33*, some quote a number that is not even attainable, so its probably a good idea, using our controller to 'set' a locked cam potision, not taking into account any mapping, just hold at X degress of advance for the whole power run. Here are the sequence of graphs at 10 degree intervals of cam advance...



    Fig 3: 10 degrees fixed advance (OEM in green)



    Fig 4: 20 degrees fixed advance (OEM in green)





    Fig 5: 30 degrees fixed advance (OEM in green)





    Fig 6: 40 degress fixed advance (OEM in green)





    Fig 7: 50 degrees (maximum) fixed advance (OEM in green)


    Okay so looking at this we can see that if you are going to lock your cam into a position, aim for approx 40* advance (fig 6). That's the 'average' best, and I say best if you are willing to live with a lot less lower bottom end torque, poor idle/emissions, and a fluffy top end/peak power. Note that in Figure 3 (30* advanced) we actually IMPROVE on the OEM power output at the RPM range 5500 onwards...


    Of course this is going to cost something like 100+ to get the VVT lockout hardware, then the time to fit the hardware, change the belt, DTI the cam angle (and the tools and know how to do so).... the list goes on...


    What we really need to do is change the cam angle based on in this case RPM alone to give us the best of 'all' worlds. Luckily, here's a graph we made earlier of all runs overlaid...



    Fig 8: VVT locked positions against OEM VVT (RED)


    Now lets go along the highest torque line and pick the curve that best represents the most torque at that point/range and punch those numbers into our VVT controller....


    We need to run (RPM -> CAM ADVANCE (degress))
    0-1000 -> 0*
    1000-2000 -> 50*
    2000-3000 -> 40*
    3000-4000 -> 50*
    4000-5000 -> 30*
    5000-5500 -> 20*
    6000+ _> 10*


    Final graph coming soon....


    Remember that all of these results are based on a factory ST170 Focus running OEM management, we have simply disconnected the VVT solenoid, tapped in our system to the cam and crank sensors and plugged into the VVT solenoid with our controller. God knows what the factory ecu is doing fuelling and ignition wise whilst it loses control of the cam, but we can all agree this is the WORST CASE improvements to be had over the current methods of VVT RPM switch on and VVT Lockout using our mappable VVT controller...

    Our controller is also 3D, so we can actually map it via throttle also, giving even more gains..... more data to follow on a nice Mk1 Escort fitted with a NODIZ Powered St170 on Bike Carbs... stay tuned...

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to mtechautomotive For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Mechanic

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    520
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Good to see someone doing some actual research instead of just trawling the internet for 'so and so says..' then regurgitating it!

  4. #3
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Thats what annoyed me.. so many incorrect posts by keyboard heroes I thought time to actually find out whats going under there, and then sort everyone with St170s a decent solution than a halfway fix

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to mtechautomotive For This Useful Post:


  6. #4
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Stockport
    Posts
    91
    Thanks
    24
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Really good explanation and results a post that is easy to read and understand!

    It will be great to see the results in a Mk1 with carbs.

    Thanks

  7. #5
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Griff,

    Thanks

    Will be updating the post once we have the car on the dyno again

  8. #6
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Antarctica
    Posts
    181
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    subscribed. thirst for more info.......

  9. #7
    TURBOSPORT SPONSOR Turbosport Subscriber
    Turbosport Moderator
    Turbosport Administrator
    Graham's Avatar
    My Race Car
    My 1st Project
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Ely, Cambs
    Age
    52
    Posts
    23,307
    Thanks
    231
    Thanked 1,854 Times in 1,737 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    interesting reading, BUT please be aware only site sponsors are allowed to use the forum to advertise their business or products

  10. #8
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Graham,

    Yes completely understood, I actually removed the references of pricing etc so it was more of an informative post, finally some good info on VVT

    Will be looking to sponsor in due course once the product is available for general sale.

    regards,
    Matt

  11. #9
    Spanner Monkey

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Sunny Wales
    Posts
    220
    Thanks
    13
    Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    I think you are seeing the power loss due to the oe ecu going into limp mode. Not the best way to make direct comparisons . Is the Vvt actually operating? Are you able to observe advance ? Your figures of cam advance are miles off what I see when mapping MBE or DTA . Sorry to be so negative but on std engine with manifold and ported head and slight hike in cr I am seeing 186bhp 171fbs torque. With 180bhp still being produced at 7500rpm . Corrected figures.
    With hc pistons and modified Vvt cams we are now seeing 198bhp on std intake. I think this it about the limit of the intake system but it's a great engine now. Very torquey and easy to drive and pulling to 8000rpm .
    The best drivers have dead flies on the side windows.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to dynoman For This Useful Post:


  13. #10
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Quote Originally Posted by dynoman View Post
    I think you are seeing the power loss due to the oe ecu going into limp mode. Not the best way to make direct comparisons . Is the Vvt actually operating? Are you able to observe advance ? Your figures of cam advance are miles off what I see when mapping MBE or DTA . Sorry to be so negative but on std engine with manifold and ported head and slight hike in cr I am seeing 186bhp 171fbs torque. With 180bhp still being produced at 7500rpm . Corrected figures.
    With hc pistons and modified Vvt cams we are now seeing 198bhp on std intake. I think this it about the limit of the intake system but it's a great engine now. Very torquey and easy to drive and pulling to 8000rpm .
    Hi,

    Indeed we are tracking the cam angle in relation to crank in real time with an accuracy on average bettering 0.1degrees (crank).

    The ECU is not reverting to an LOS operating mode with VVT control failure, that we can be sure of, seeing matching ignition adavnce and good AFRs, though indeed, we will be doing a better diagnosic run using an ST170 on carbs in the next week or so.

    How do you mean miles off in terms of advance angles? We are reading anglur position of the +1 tooth rising edge of the cam in relation to the missing tooth (virtual) on the crank, in crank degrees.

    Get what you are saying, but true VVT control is the best method by and far improving over switch on or lockout methods, which was the aim of the system..

    I wish all engines had VVT on both cams, true mapping ability with a lot less spannering! Bring on the ecoboost

  14. #11
    TURBOSPORT SPONSOR Turbosport Subscriber
    Turbosport Moderator
    Turbosport Administrator
    Graham's Avatar
    My Race Car
    My 1st Project
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Ely, Cambs
    Age
    52
    Posts
    23,307
    Thanks
    231
    Thanked 1,854 Times in 1,737 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    have you run up any other std spec st170's? in this day and age it would be unusual for a std engine to be so far down on manufactures claimed power figures. i cant help but think theres something wrong with it

  15. #12
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Graham,

    Run many St170s on the dyno, they all make circa 150bhp.

    its not really the point of how much power it makes, just that with correct control we can get BACK to the power the OEM VVT produces, without tailing off or missing low end torque, that was the aim of the experiment.

    it you just scroll down the graphs, you will see, as we run with further advanced cam, we 'hit' the OEM power at lower RPM than the last run, exactly what you would expect with cam tuning

    Matt

  16. #13
    TURBOSPORT SPONSOR Turbosport Subscriber
    Turbosport Moderator
    Turbosport Administrator
    Graham's Avatar
    My Race Car
    My 1st Project
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Ely, Cambs
    Age
    52
    Posts
    23,307
    Thanks
    231
    Thanked 1,854 Times in 1,737 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    its not really the point of how much power it makes, just that with correct control we can get BACK to the power the OEM VVT produces, without tailing off or missing low end torque, that was the aim of the experiment.
    yes i get that. my point was that if your tuning something that isnt right in the first place the same tuning may not be applicable to a healthy motor.

    if you happy that on your dyno they all give about 150bhp then all is well.

  17. #14
    Mechanic

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    manchester
    Age
    45
    Posts
    733
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked 31 Times in 29 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    gues at the end of the day its all about how the motor drives, and all the figures are good for is male organ measuring down at the pub, and comparison for such work as is being carried out here. iv'e been down a very rocky road with development on this engine, and started off with the on/off with the vvt, and that maxed at 163bhp, different rollers yes, but was all over @approx 5.5k if remember corectly, but gave good torque. i then went on to full vvt control, and gained 25 ish bhp on same rollers, but the car had totally transformed, pulled well, and peaked now @6.2k. the car also drove totally different, much friendlier. i appreciate the everyones rollers readings differ, but the given figures suggest to me that somethings amiss somewhere, even accounting for a discrepency with different rollers. i like the idea, as at the moment, there is no such option on the market as what matt is trying to achieve here, and would be a good item for many people, i had no such option when i got mine sorted! keep at it dude, you'll get there!

  18. #15
    Spanner Monkey

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Sunny Wales
    Posts
    220
    Thanks
    13
    Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    I still maintain there is something wrong with the engine or sensors . I have only seen one ST170 that actually gave the claimed power. Others have been 140ish , due to an underlying issue. Exactly what we had with dyn car Gwyn's donor car when developing MBE to run Vvt. 140 without Vvt working, 163 with switched Vvt 186 with mapped Vvt .
    I would need to look at the cam timing figures to see what difference there is between yours and mine but I do know that are considerably different to what you state .
    The best drivers have dead flies on the side windows.

  19. #16
    Spanner Monkey

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Sunny Wales
    Posts
    220
    Thanks
    13
    Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Just a little confused by your posts, in you oe post you state ( god knows what the oe ecu was doing to fuel and ignition) then on your reply state that you were monitoring fuel and ignition!
    Don't get me wrong I'm not knocking your findings but just looking for
    Clarity.
    The best drivers have dead flies on the side windows.

  20. #17
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Quote Originally Posted by dynoman View Post
    Just a little confused by your posts, in you oe post you state ( god knows what the oe ecu was doing to fuel and ignition) then on your reply state that you were monitoring fuel and ignition!
    Don't get me wrong I'm not knocking your findings but just looking for
    Clarity.
    I get your point, everything was in spec as far as we could see, but I mean that with proper mapping of fuel and ignition to accomodate for our odd timings we could probably get more power. The important point is we can hit OEM power levels accross the range, rather than limiting it.

    My next objective is to map the VVT controller to get 'as good as' OEM power (in this cars case) so we then know it is definitavely better than other common VVT 'fix's... though that is pretty obvious this far

    Stay tuned

  21. #18
    Spanner Monkey

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Sunny Wales
    Posts
    220
    Thanks
    13
    Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    The tread title needs to be changed IMO as it's not the definitive ST170 Vvt information! It's a blatant ploy to promote the sale of goods before sufficient r&d has been done .
    The best drivers have dead flies on the side windows.

  22. #19
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Antarctica
    Posts
    181
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    yes i get that. my point was that if your tuning something that isnt right in the first place the same tuning may not be applicable to a healthy motor.

    if you happy that on your dyno they all give about 150bhp then all is well.
    Pug 206gti 180 makes about 155/160 everybody knows it.just manufacturers selling products.

    Dymo man. Ease up, last post sounds sour grapes. By all means have a poke around if there's stuff you feels not right, by god it needs someone poking around it cause I don't understand it... But if someone thinks about it and spends time writing it up and developing it all isn't that a good thing?

    Let's not turn into a bashing contest, keep it lively but most of all keep it honest and informative. :-)

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to tkracing For This Useful Post:


  24. #20
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Quote Originally Posted by dynoman View Post
    The tread title needs to be changed IMO as it's not the definitive ST170 Vvt information! It's a blatant ploy to promote the sale of goods before sufficient r&d has been done .
    Dynoman.. why the hate, afterall here were your thoughts on VVT (another post on here)... 400 extra cost to control it... and thats on a 1400 ECU Hence us making this little unit...surely its a benefit to the world?
    Re: ST170 VVT setup with megajolt?
    Can i add my two penneth worth?
    Firstly the additional cost of the ecu, which is 1400 all in with loom & VAT . Any decent ecu for a conventional engine is going to be the best part of a grand , so the extra 400 to get the best from you engine is not a big ask.
    Dyn-car-gwyn's car, has been my guinea pig and previous figures were uncorrected . My new setup and all figures hence forth are now corrected so basically we are still at the same power but with it hanging on for much longer with the ported head ( see my thread ST170).
    As i have said many times on here before, its a total waste of time not running the VVT correctly as the difference is some 25bhp! So effectively, for that extra 400, you are getting 25bhp! seems very good value for money on a n/a engine.
    If i get time i will post the graph for the engine as it is , but on the other thread.


    ---

    It is the first time someone has correctly plotted the OEM advance, and shown how different angles effect the power output...

    FastFord want to run it as a 2 part article, and as it says, more to follow, ie testing on a differnt ST170 with carbs, as stated.

    Feel free to PM me so we can discuss if there is an issue as would prefer this post to be as per the title... VVT information.

    Cheers,
    Matt
    Last edited by mtechautomotive; 02-03-2014 at 11:44.

  25. #21
    Spanner Monkey

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Sunny Wales
    Posts
    220
    Thanks
    13
    Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Its certainly not sour grapes. I appologise, it was too heavy handed and uncalled for.

    We will move on
    The best drivers have dead flies on the side windows.

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to dynoman For This Useful Post:


  27. #22
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    A little update:



    FURTHER DEVELOPMENTS: Mapping Software and PID Tuning...


    Following on, we now have a nice mapping environment for tuning and developing our VVT system:





    As you can see we have loaded in our OEM values, and using the datalogging features of the software we have recorded the Actual_advance and Required_Advance so we can start to tune our PID algorithm. After a few tweaks, we have currently got to this point....





    Good tracking with a max error when rapid angle changes are requested of around 7 degrees, that settles almost instantly... certainly as good as OEM response of the cam!

  28. #23
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    The results are in...


    We carried out the testing on this Mk1, fitted with 6R carbs and a NODIZ for ignition management...





    The below are the AMAZING RESULTS. The RED is the normal switch on at 1500rpm Method, the BLUE line is running the VVTPro with a factory VVT advance curve. We never did any mapping, just plugged it in..


    10ft/lbs gain for the majority of the graph, with even more gains at the end, and 21bhp overall power gain...




    With finer PID tuning and more mapping we expect even more gains, but I think out of the box, that'll do donkey, that'll do!
    Last edited by mtechautomotive; 11-03-2014 at 12:35.

  29. #24
    Mechanic

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    manchester
    Age
    45
    Posts
    733
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked 31 Times in 29 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    nice to see some progress, however, i was slightly disappointed to see the figures a touch low, especially with bike carbs, would expect to see around 190bhp. still, its progress! keep at it!

  30. #25
    I support TS Decade Plus User
    Turbosport Subscriber
    alladdin's Avatar

    My 1st Project
    My 2nd Project
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    s.wales
    Age
    55
    Posts
    9,421
    Thanks
    105
    Thanked 375 Times in 370 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    i have no idea whether the bike carbs are suitable or how your rr is calibrated / compares to others etc, but the overall figures dont really impress ? my understanding is that any decently tuned 2.0 zetec on webers and mapped ign will give 160 -170 bhp ? weber alpha kits for instance.

    interesting product for sure.

  31. #26
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Dont look at peak power... look at the difference in the curves. We could call it apples.. either way, more apples over more RPM compared to 'SWITCH ON' VVT control

    You can see how bringing the cam advance back at hogher RPMs keeps the torque up, just like we illustrated in the first post by 'locking' the cam half way.

    I have seen 197 bhp on TBs on an St170... This car was running VERY rich, and we werent doing any tuning, just a 'this is how it was, compared to this how it is'

    We are all very happy with the results, little bit more tweaking but ready to rock and roll

    Matt
    Last edited by mtechautomotive; 11-03-2014 at 14:17.

  32. #27
    I support TS Decade Plus User
    Turbosport Subscriber
    alladdin's Avatar

    My 1st Project
    My 2nd Project
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    s.wales
    Age
    55
    Posts
    9,421
    Thanks
    105
    Thanked 375 Times in 370 Posts
    Fair comment but I'm sure that a graph from a properly optimised engine would better serve you.

  33. #28
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Alladin, completely agree

    Its more of a developmental review rather than marketing spiel... But yes as more and more people fit them, more fitting graphs will no doubt become available

    For now, lets just call it a 15% improvement on peak power over traditional open loop control methods The bottom end and mid range are also massively improved (which matters more in real life) but as you rightly said, the peak power matters more down the pub...

    If anyone has an ST170 running something like an OMEX600 on jenvies and would like to bring it down I would be happy to map it for free to get some more data. PM me

    Matt

  34. #29
    I support TS Turbosport Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    In a shed in Coventry
    Age
    49
    Posts
    1,394
    Thanks
    152
    Thanked 45 Times in 44 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Excellent ! So far cheaper than a fancy ecu etc
    I will be in contact soon as i get my car back together
    .

  35. #30
    Mechanic

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    manchester
    Age
    45
    Posts
    733
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked 31 Times in 29 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Having spent time and money on this engine, chasing the ponies, the figures given here are in keeping with the vvt now functioning correctly, i.e, @ flywheel, no vvt approx 140, switched on, approx 160, vvt correctly mapped, approx 185, all that on standard induction. Appreciate figures are pub talk, but they do seem to be a bit too far off. Like alladin suggested, an optimised standard engine would be a better bench mark. These are notorious for being finicky in standard guise. I think it's great that someone is taking the time and effort to research, and am sure you'll get there in the end. I'd expect to see that set up knocking on the door of 200bhp.

  36. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dyn-car-gwyn For This Useful Post:


  37. #31
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Dyn,

    Definately looking for the 200bhp mark. Will be a nice 'set' for the ST170 + TBs + Simple ECU (read OMEX600, megasuirt, KMS etc) + VVT pro

    Matt

  38. #32
    Mechanic

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    manchester
    Age
    45
    Posts
    733
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked 31 Times in 29 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Quote Originally Posted by dyn-car-gwyn View Post
    Having spent time and money on this engine, chasing the ponies, the figures given here are in keeping with the vvt now functioning correctly, i.e, @ flywheel, no vvt approx 140, switched on, approx 160, vvt correctly mapped, approx 185, all that on standard induction. Appreciate figures are pub talk, but they do seem to be a bit too far off. Like alladin suggested, an optimised standard engine would be a better bench mark. These are notorious for being finicky in standard guise. I think it's great that someone is taking the time and effort to research, and am sure you'll get there in the end. I'd expect to see that set up knocking on the door of 200bhp.
    Just realised, it should read not functioning correctly, I'm only making reference to past experiences. With throttle bodies, I would hazard a guess at 220 to230 brake.

  39. #33
    Racer Decade Plus User RWD fords rule's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Ireland
    Age
    35
    Posts
    3,588
    Thanks
    174
    Thanked 359 Times in 301 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Interesting project, yes the power figures do seem low but so long as those rollers read low for every engine it doesn't really matter, I have seen enough rolling road printouts to know that in most cases they are not in any way comparable to each other, however they are very repeatable and useful for measuring power differences, for accurate flywheel power figures it really has to be bolted to a dyno imho and if you want a real measure of power get it on a race track or rally stage then the bs figures numbers game stops

    Something to note about the engine with the bike carbs: up to 40mm ID bike carbs flow less air than 45mm DCOE's with 37mm or larger chokes, and that is IF the inlet manifold has decent straight port runners, so don't expect miracles from them and don't compare with 45's with 38mm chokes or 48's, because they don't flow anywhere near the same amount of air never mind 45mm tb's which out flow even 50's

    When marketing time comes a good engine with 45mm jenvey or similar TB's, a decent ex manifold + system and optimised engine mapping is for sure the best option, together with a little more optimistic rolling road or a proper dyno power graph because as we all know people like big numbers

    But in terms of initial testing so long as the engine is in good shape power numbers are not important, comparisons are

    About the number of advance degrees vs rpm observed in the std engine, if we were to speak of the real in engine inlet opening and inlet closing points measured in crank degrees what would they be, ie when you say 30 or 40* "advance" you must mean from the fully retarded setting on the vvt pulley but what is the inlet valve timing or cam centerline angle in relation to the crank at any of these timing points out of curiosity?

    Good luck with the project, looks like a good cost effective solution
    Last edited by RWD fords rule; 11-03-2014 at 23:03.
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

  40. #34
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Hi RWD, thanks for the post.

    You are right, it was based on advance from OEM rest position. As to actual cam timing, because I have never DTI'd one of these engines I cannot tell you the actual cam timing angles, but with that in mind if you have that data you should be able to work it out?

    Doing as you said with the jenveies etc in a few weeks time in a Mk1 we are currently restoring.

    Cheers
    Matt

  41. #35
    Mechanic

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    manchester
    Age
    45
    Posts
    733
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked 31 Times in 29 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Well, yes, the engine could be in fine tolerance, but, as like many modern engines, there's much more involved than just mechanical tolerances, they were called St170 for a reason, albeit not nowadays achieve that in standard guise

  42. #36
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Stockport
    Posts
    91
    Thanks
    24
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    So this manages to match a claimed ford 170 bhp. With carbs and stand alone ecu.

    Dyn has more on standard inlet with dynomans ecu.

    Isnt duncs standard st running 175bhp on carbs with a solenoid?

    Im not doubtful of what you want to achieve. Im in the market for this product and would like to see the true potential. :-)

  43. #37
    Racer

    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Camberley, Surrey
    Posts
    2,029
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 181 Times in 181 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Any dyno figure is worthless unless it compared to other set-ups on the same dyno and on the same day with same weather conditions!
    Torque is the important number and is something that can be measured not 'generated' using formula's, compensations, offsets and voodoo!

  44. #38
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    Any dyno figure is worthless unless it compared to other set-ups on the same dyno and on the same day with same weather conditions!
    Torque is the important number and is something that can be measured not 'generated' using formula's, compensations, offsets and voodoo!
    Exactly, same day withint rhe 10 mins, just one run with it using 1500rpm switch on methiod using the NODIZ Output, and the next run using true VVT control... the gains have been illustrated.

    THE POWER NUMBERS MEAN NOTHING. THE GAINS ARE WHAT WE ARE ILLUSTRATING

  45. #39
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Wiltshire
    Age
    33
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    Any dyno figure is worthless unless it compared to other set-ups on the same dyno and on the same day with same weather conditions!
    Torque is the important number and is something that can be measured not 'generated' using formula's, compensations, offsets and voodoo!
    Exactly, same day withint rhe 10 mins, just one run with it using 1500rpm switch on methiod using the NODIZ Output, and the next run using true VVT control... the gains have been illustrated.

    THE POWER NUMBERS MEAN NOTHING. THE GAINS ARE WHAT WE ARE ILLUSTRATING

    IF you are getting 175bhp now using the 'full on method', you can expect to get 15 percent improvement. Simple as that

    Happy for anyone with these cars to come down to the dyno and try it for themselves in front of them ... just PM me...

    Takes me 3 minutes to plug in the Cam sensor, splitter cable to crank sensor and solenoid. As long as you are happy to adjust your carbs etc to handle the new found airflow (hell you will see the engine go lean, which is a big enough sign!) then lets go for it!

  46. #40
    Bodger

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Buckley north wales
    Age
    46
    Posts
    94
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts

    Re: The definitive ST170 VVT Information....

    Right its my car so let me explain from my stand point
    matts figures for bhp lower than what I expected the car wen back to where we usually go yesterday and came out at 134 AT THE WHEELS now thats a bit less than when it was set up and is running rich too when it was set up but have had a belt swap since then as broken cam belt pulley
    the car is running a powerflow quiet twin box system (I am not getting any younger) so could explain the difference I have seen a change from an ashely to a 105 speed exhaust gain 15bhp at the wheels

    I had driven 200+ miles so wasnt just going to say oh dont bother I will just drive home again the test was too see the gains and they speak for themselves
    also the engine is as it was taken out of the knackered unloved st (hence the snapped pulley )
    car drives great and you can tell the difference to the silvertop with cams that was in it before when the system is fitted properly anybody on here is more than welcome to come and have a drive

    the carbs and ecu cost a dam sight less than a set of bodies and ecu that wont run your vvt right in the first place as matt says anyone wants to try one on whatever mega bhp pub figures engine running a basic switched ecu on anything give him a call it will be worth it
    Last edited by Rcdunk; 13-03-2014 at 11:56.

  47. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rcdunk For This Useful Post:


+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts