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Thread: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Std 2.3 apparently made 210nm, i could be wrong but i think its down on compression, either inl. cam needing advanced or static comp calcs/machining incorrect, possibly a fuelling issue around 2900 - 3500rpm causing the dip, im not familiar with the cams used but id say flow picks up around those RPM's so maybe some more mapping to do there.

    It does look and sound good, as long as its not detonating or running too lean you can fine tune over time.......everything needs a tinker to get right, especially when laptops are involved lol.
    Last edited by Erikmex; 10-07-2014 at 20:00.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    i suspect theres a lot to come from the mapping.

    to be honest although the results are ok the method used isnt great.

    the best way to map an engine is to start using steady load at low revs/light throttle sites, pick a site/speed get the mixture right, then adjust timing to get max power, then move on to the next site and repeat, if you work you way through all the low speed stuff first you will see patterns appear in the mapping numbers, before moving to teh next load site load up the numbers from the previous site, doing that means you dont risk a sudden jump in timing or mixture but also speeds up the process as the mapping numbers dont normally radically change from one site to the next.

    once you have got half way through the map its time to switch to measuring by doing accel runs, logging and adjusting mixture first then timing, but again you should do the smaller throttle positions before going full throttle

    if you work your way through a map like that you are unlikely to end up with big holes and flat spots, there is also less risk of damage to teh engine by putting it under load with totally unsuited map numbers
    Last edited by Graham; 10-07-2014 at 21:51.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Rolling roads are never accurate anyway, you just tune for a change never a figure, as a matter of interest what cylinder pressures are you seeing cold cranking WOT?
    the only real way to tell is an engine dyno cell but i haven't got one of them :P i know of 4 rolling roads in south wales and i just want to go around them all with the same car/spec and see what the difference is out of interst as people seam to make brilliant power on some and crap on others.

    i will try the cracking pressures when hot and cold i take it 3 plugs out the gauge in one cylinder.

    would i be right in thinking a 12/1cr should show 220/240psi?

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    would i be right in thinking a 12/1cr should show 220/240psi?
    yes, no, maybe! cams and cam timing will have an effect on compression reading, but definitely you should be seeing 200 plus, over 250 is scary high

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by RWD fords rule View Post
    Exactly and good idea, see wat the cranking pressures are like with the engine warmed up, all of the plugs out and the throttle held at WOT while cranking with a fully charged battery
    all stuff i will be trying soon then. i will look at the cam timing as well as i wasn't sure on the inlet timing! Thanks for all the help guys this might just make more power in a month or two

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Std 2.3 apparently made 210nm, i could be wrong but i think its down on compression, either inl. cam needing advanced or static comp calcs/machining incorrect, possibly a fuelling issue around 2900 - 3500rpm causing the dip, im not familiar with the cams used but id say flow picks up around those RPM's so maybe some more mapping to do there.

    It does look and sound good, as long as its not detonating or running too lean you can fine tune over time.......everything needs a tinker to get right, especially when laptops are involved lol.
    we mapped it to 0.86 lambda and when i checked the plugs since they are slightly wet and a nice brown/black in colour so she is running fine. still a load of work to be done need to check the compression and cam timing. also around the dip oviously needs work so that will be looked at too.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    i suspect theres a lot to come from the mapping.

    to be honest although the results are ok the method used isnt great.

    the best way to map an engine is to start using steady load at low revs/light throttle sites, pick a site/speed get the mixture right, then adjust timing to get max power, then move on to the next site and repeat, if you work you way through all the low speed stuff first you will see patterns appear in the mapping numbers, before moving to teh next load site load up the numbers from the previous site, doing that means you dont risk a sudden jump in timing or mixture but also speeds up the process as the mapping numbers dont normally radically change from one site to the next.

    once you have got half way through the map its time to switch to measuring by doing accel runs, logging and adjusting mixture first then timing, but again you should do the smaller throttle positions before going full throttle

    if you work your way through a map like that you are unlikely to end up with big holes and flat spots, there is also less risk of damage to teh engine by putting it under load with totally unsuited map numbers
    right that makes much more sense why we done it the way we did i don't know :P my mate has since mapped is b16b using the was described and he got a much better result. I just want to kick the mrs capri out of the garage now and start tinkering with mine again! All these ideas are spurring me on.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    yes, no, maybe! cams and cam timing will have an effect on compression reading, but definitely you should be seeing 200 plus, over 250 is scary high
    i'm guessing these are hot figures too? What difference should i see between hot and cold, whats the normal difference in pressure. Obviously hot will be higher though.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Std 2.3 apparently made 210nm, i could be wrong but i think its down on compression, either inl. cam needing advanced or static comp calcs/machining incorrect, possibly a fuelling issue around 2900 - 3500rpm causing the dip, im not familiar with the cams used but id say flow picks up around those RPM's so maybe some more mapping to do there.

    It does look and sound good, as long as its not detonating or running too lean you can fine tune over time.......everything needs a tinker to get right, especially when laptops are involved lol.
    yeah i know at 3k too! didn't feel like that compared to the new engine.

    here's a video of the old 2.3 on the ring too doesn't pull nowhere near as hard i have since gone from a 3.89 to a 3.75 on the new engine too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHOVOaM4tB0

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by freddy686868 View Post
    i'm guessing these are hot figures too? What difference should i see between hot and cold, whats the normal difference in pressure. Obviously hot will be higher though.
    ive never done back to back cold/hot tests as such but, in my experience a healthy engine wont show much difference hot/cold but a tired engine gets better hot.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    I get around 200psi cold with 11.8:1 on my pinto with HT1 cam however the HT1 has much longer duration and overlap than your cam, swinging the cam timing a couple of degrees either way alters the readings slightly, on your engine with 12:1 as Graham says id expect 200+

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    well i have checked the cams and it is looking good for more power as the inlet cam is on standard timing where as the exhaust has been adjusted in the correct rotation

    exhaust has been retarded which i believe is correct


    as you can seethe inlet cam is on the standard timing and i will advance it when i am on th dyno next time.


    hopefully this will get me much more torque and and a shed loads of mid/top end torque. I haven't been able to get hold of a compression tester and the time to use it yet, so fingers crossed it is just the cams are the problem.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Did you ever move the cam timing and see any better results

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Turboman View Post
    Did you ever move the cam timing and see any better results
    I have done plenty of research and i think i need a longer inlet track for a start so i will be going on the rollers after christmas. Firstly to adjust the cam timing and secondly to put longer trumpets on to see if that gets rid of the big dip in the power before it comes on cam. We will be remapping all the load sites too as my mate has learnt a little more about mapping. So all that ahould see an improvement in the engine but we will see.

    I have been using the car a lot as of late ans really getting to grips with it. The engine must have done 4000miles now. Take a look. Thanks, John

    http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthre...=276802&page=9

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    ive never done back to back cold/hot tests as such but, in my experience a healthy engine wont show much difference hot/cold but a tired engine gets better hot.
    right i finally got round to testing the compression as a freind of mine has made his own 2.4 using the same base enigine but totally different pistons and cams. He struggled to get 185bhp and 200ft/lbs of torque out of his before the hydraulic lifters went tits up and put the valves into the pistons.

    Any way my compression stone cold (not started for 2/3 weeks was 170/175psi) i put some oil in the bores and it went to 180/183 psi. After running the car for a short time maybe 10 mins the temp gauge hadn't moved but i could feel some heat in the bay type hot. The compression was 225/230psi so all healthy there.

    I do have one question though how close can i get the trumpets to the inner wing before it affects the flow top end? I have seen pipes pinto and the trumpets look way closer than i would like to run, but it makes the power so can't be a bad thing. I ask this because i want the longest ones i can fit in the bay before restricting the flow. The current plan is to run the same length trumpets as i did on the webbers giving me the same inlet as i had before just 48mm bodies. Also would it benefit me to angle the inlet pipes now as i am running injection it would mean better flow and i could possibly lengthen the trumpets further again.

    old set up




    new set up, the new trumpets are 40mm long and i'm sure the old ones were 60mm. The webers are the same length as the jenveys too.

    Last edited by freddy686868; 07-01-2015 at 17:23.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by RWD fords rule View Post
    Exactly and good idea, see wat the cranking pressures are like with the engine warmed up, all of the plugs out and the throttle held at WOT while cranking with a fully charged battery
    Finally checked the compression other day. If you see the post above this one it will explain everything. Maybe you have an input about the inlet length too?

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    an inch is about as close as you can go, from testing ive seen and done those trumpets on the jenveys are the WRONG shape, ones like on the webers are better, ones patterned after origonal weber 40mm side draft trumpets are better still.

    if it were me i would be fitting these, http://www.emeraldm3d.com/throttle-b...th-intake.html

    they dont do them for 48's but the 45 ones will fit your 48's i even used a set on 50mm jenveys

    if you want a set let me know and i will sort you out a more favourable price then buying direct

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    That's a nice little product Mr Walker has come up with! I saw he was testing the theory - didn't know it was now available.
    There is a possibility of pressure wave reflection from ram tubes being close to flat surfaces - guess you have to balance the improvement against the restriction in clean airflow to see if its worthwhile. I've a similar problem even using the Jenvey 40mm ram pipes so i'm thinking of fabricating 4No curved tubes from the TB mouth, curving up toward the bonnet - that will allow a decent inlet length and get some reasonable filters on the intake - not enough space at present! As its a road car, the torque improvement is what I want.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    an inch is about as close as you can go, from testing ive seen and done those trumpets on the jenveys are the WRONG shape, ones like on the webers are better, ones patterned after origonal weber 40mm side draft trumpets are better still.

    if it were me i would be fitting these, http://www.emeraldm3d.com/throttle-b...th-intake.html

    they dont do them for 48's but the 45 ones will fit your 48's i even used a set on 50mm jenveys

    if you want a set let me know and i will sort you out a more favourable price then buying direct
    Thanks for taking the time to reply, and so quickly too. I will be dropping you a pm shortly about the adjustable trumpets it will be very interesting to see what difference they make even at the same length. I will just lengthen them 10mm at a time and see how it goes. I think i will then adjust the inlet timing to see what happens then.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    go the other way, almost everything likes really long, so start with the longest possible length and shorten. only play with the length when testing WOT, and playing with the cam might effect length required, ive done cam swaps and had to change induction length

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    That's a nice little product Mr Walker has come up with! I saw he was testing the theory - didn't know it was now available.
    There is a possibility of pressure wave reflection from ram tubes being close to flat surfaces - guess you have to balance the improvement against the restriction in clean airflow to see if its worthwhile. I've a similar problem even using the Jenvey 40mm ram pipes so i'm thinking of fabricating 4No curved tubes from the TB mouth, curving up toward the bonnet - that will allow a decent inlet length and get some reasonable filters on the intake - not enough space at present! As its a road car, the torque improvement is what I want.
    He writes some very interesting blogs on there and is forthcoming in everything he does and problems he comes up against. I think i will just buy the trumpets off graham and adjust the length until the power curve gets worse. It is a shame i can only lengthen the trumpets 25/30mm maximum because i don't think i will get the full benefits of the wide range of adjustment. I can see me stopping at 65mm in length because of lack of room. At a later date i might have another inlet made up the same angle as the heads port and do a back to back on the rollers.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    go the other way, almost everything likes really long, so start with the longest possible length and shorten. only play with the length when testing WOT, and playing with the cam might effect length required, ive done cam swaps and had to change induction length
    So long to short for the inlet WOT adjust cam timing and try inlet length again?

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    adjust the length until the power curve gets worse. It is a shame i can only lengthen the trumpets 25/30mm maximum because
    you might only get 25/30mm more length, but the shape is MORE important

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    you might only get 25/30mm more length, but the shape is MORE important
    Fair enough. I can't wait to test it all out now.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power




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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    given that you have only 15mm to play with i think the DW ones are overkill ? just make a set from old weber ones at max you can fit ?

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    personally i dont, the DW trumpets are dead straight like most 40 dcoe, the 45s are not, on dazzles 2.2 that small difference in shape was 5bhp, when you already have 192bhp another 5 from a small intake change is MASSIVE

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by alladdin View Post
    given that you have only 15mm to play with i think the DW ones are overkill ? just make a set from old weber ones at max you can fit ?
    I played with the idea of making them out of my old weber ones but they might go in the cappa in the future and £130/£145 isn't a lot of money in the grand scheme of things anything for more power or a better curve for that little price is good with me. The fact that i can have infinite trumpet lengths (with in that 25mm that is ) interests me too. I really want to prove what this engine can do too for a home built motor that is, so every single bhp counts.
    Last edited by freddy686868; 07-01-2015 at 21:54.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    personally i dont, the DW trumpets are dead straight like most 40 dcoe, the 45s are not, on dazzles 2.2 that small difference in shape was 5bhp, when you already have 192bhp another 5 from a small intake change is MASSIVE
    Big changes in the power curve and top end ;P worth every penny. Update to follow.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Right so today was the day.

    The first run of the day as the engine stood with 40mm tapered jenvey trumpets





    Then we switched to the straight emerald trumpets also 40mm in length. I took lots of the nasty dip out, smoothed out the top half of the map and held on to the power much longer!





    50mm emerald trumpets. More of a drop in the torque in the dips.





    60mm emerald trumpets. Bigger dips in the torque and no ovious benifit elsewhere in the power curve



    We then went to 70mm but it really didn't like that so we put them back to the originla 40mm as it seamed to woek best there.



    So after 4 hours of messing with the fueling map accross a load of tps ranges and rpm ranges we have this. This run was ended early as the lambda reading went mega lean but we found out it was blown out of the exhaust. Lol. We still need to map the ignition properly too!



    Good grunt flat out and she drives like a dream at any rev/tps range.



    All the way through we have had problems with the rollers tripping out at the higher rpms the first run tripped at 7160rpm. So we haven't got a true top end reading but after all the mapping the riollers tripped out at 6700rpm :P a bit of a pain really but we know she's pulling well.





    Got a nice little picture of mapping 100% throttle at 7000rpm

    Last edited by freddy686868; 06-02-2015 at 01:21.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    What you need to do is angle your inlet manifold so it's the same angle as the inlet ports, it would also give more clearance for air flow into the trumpets, straghten the inlet path to increase flow and a chance to add a set of outer fuel injectors
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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew@ALD View Post
    What you need to do is angle your inlet manifold so it's the same angle as the inlet ports, it would also give more clearance for air flow into the trumpets, straghten the inlet path to increase flow and a chance to add a set of outer fuel injectors
    I agree with all of that, but more injectors? this engine has a long way to go still but for a home built/tunned lump it's getting better. I didn't swing the cam today either as the allen bolts rounded they are made of chocolate! :S

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    more injectors doesn't mean more fuel but it does mean better atomisation when staged with the others. They will be controlled with info from throttle angle and loads
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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    I did one of these over 10 years ago now and I got 185 at the wheels at around 6800 and 171 ftlbs was about 224 flywheel i think ...

    2.3 Galaxy block
    Stock pistons 12 thou took off the top to make around 10.7.1
    Stock rods ARP rod bolts
    Balancer shafts removed
    i4 RS 2000 head , CTM port & polish
    Harvey Gibbs spec gravel cams ( He did a lot with the Works I4 Engines with Ford at Boreham )
    45mm Throttle Bodies Weber Alpha Management
    Tony Law GP4 Exhaust Manifold (if the Primary's and Secondries were a tad smaller should have seen a 5hp increase.)

    Its went very well and pulled like a train. We had the red rubber Weber Alpha trumpets about 40mm i think they just pushed in the air filter back plate would like to try longer but space was limited .... should really have angled the inlet up to get longer in there.

    But sure your motor needs some fettling for sure

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    thats a result less dip in the torque curve and hanging on to the power considerable, with the top end it mirrors what i have seen with the emerald trumpets, the power hangs on longer

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    thats a result less dip in the torque curve and hanging on to the power considerable, with the top end it mirrors what i have seen with the emerald trumpets, the power hangs on longer
    I was very impressed with them and so were the other guys there you might get a phone call for a set in the future. Lol. Shame the rollers couldn't get to 7500rpm with out tripping out. I'll give te jenvey trumpets the air test now ;P

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    just one more thought, did you try going shorter than 40mm? most engine i see like long, the only other exception i recall was my 2.6 4 pot16v s14 beemer engine that liked short.

    if you do try going shorter just make sure they dont contact the butterflies, easy to cure if the do, just cut them down a bit

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Johnston View Post
    I did one of these over 10 years ago now and I got 185 at the wheels at around 6800 and 171 ftlbs was about 224 flywheel i think ...

    2.3 Galaxy block
    Stock pistons 12 thou took off the top to make around 10.7.1
    Stock rods ARP rod bolts
    Balancer shafts removed
    i4 RS 2000 head , CTM port & polish
    Harvey Gibbs spec gravel cams ( He did a lot with the Works I4 Engines with Ford at Boreham )
    45mm Throttle Bodies Weber Alpha Management
    Tony Law GP4 Exhaust Manifold (if the Primary's and Secondries were a tad smaller should have seen a 5hp increase.)

    Its went very well and pulled like a train. We had the red rubber Weber Alpha trumpets about 40mm i think they just pushed in the air filter back plate would like to try longer but space was limited .... should really have angled the inlet up to get longer in there.

    But sure your motor needs some fettling for sure

    Sounds a very nice motor indeed but i have built and tunned this engine myself. It is not a flat out race engine it hasn't been mapped by a pro, it is using correctly reading rollers (not that yours weren't) and we haven't advanced any of the ignition yet. It is also still on hydraulic lifters. It has no means the meanest i4 engine ever built but it is my mean i4 engine. Designed,built and tunned but one amature although my friend helped greatly with the mapping. So the fact that it made the same power as a 10k jre 2l xe (just much more torque accross the range) on the same rollers means the engine is good enough for a first build/potch. I have saved thousands, had fun. An engine i csn put my name to and learnt a load too.

    Rant over i guess haha.
    Last edited by freddy686868; 06-02-2015 at 11:34.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    just one more thought, did you try going shorter than 40mm? most engine i see like long, the only other exception i recall was my 2.6 4 pot16v s14 beemer engine that liked short.

    if you do try going shorter just make sure they dont contact the butterflies, easy to cure if the do, just cut them down a bit
    I had to cut them



    The shortest they will go is 40mm too as the locking collar hits the trumpet flare. Otherwise i would have liked to have tried them shorter. I think if i had room for a 90mm trumpet it would have gotten better but it was at the stage were it had to get worse before better and would couldn't push through the worst of it. Just a very vaigue thought too maybe the higher capacity 4 pots like a shorter trumpet?

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Std 2.3 apparently made 210nm, i could be wrong but i think its down on compression, either inl. cam needing advanced or static comp calcs/machining incorrect, possibly a fuelling issue around 2900 - 3500rpm causing the dip, im not familiar with the cams used but id say flow picks up around those RPM's so maybe some more mapping to do there.

    It does look and sound good, as long as its not detonating or running too lean you can fine tune over time.......everything needs a tinker to get right, especially when laptops are involved lol.
    Loads of time on the laptop again! At some points i wish i had stuck with webers :P

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