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Thread: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

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    2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Basically i have totally rebuilt an I4 2295cc engine i call the rs 2300 as it is the same used in the mk5/6 escort. I am just running the engine in at the moment but i will be on the rollers being set up in the next week. The spec is as followed. Please take a guess on the torque and the bhp you think it could make.

    2295cc 16v chain driven engine with a 0.040" overbore 2341cc
    verinier pullies
    piper bp300h cams
    ported head by ald developments
    kent uprated single spring valve springs
    Bogg bros cutsom made inlet originally to suit 45mm webbers
    jenvey 48mm throttle bodies megane rs26 390cc injectors
    fully rebuilt bottom end new shells
    cutsom made cp pistons for 12/1 cr
    steel china rods with arp 2000 rod bolts
    tony law 4-2-1 exhaust manifold
    2 1/2 exhaust system

    now time for some pictures


















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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power








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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    226bhp

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    226bhp
    At the fly or the wheel?

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    These engines make good power. I had one on the dyno years ago. Complete stock engine, Piper BP285 cams and throttle bodies (DTA ECU). Little over 200 Bhp and lots of torque. If I remember well, at least 240 Nm.

    But beware. I remember you could not run a BP285 on standard size followers. After some time, the cam pushed out a follower. So for a BP300 double check or ask advice for at Piper.

    Over 220 Bhp can be possible. I would say closer to 230 - 240 bhp if the head is done correct and if the engine react well to the BP300.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    These engines make good power. I had one on the dyno years ago. Complete stock engine, Piper BP285 cams and throttle bodies (DTA ECU). Little over 200 Bhp and lots of torque. If I remember well, at least 240 Nm.

    But beware. I remember you could not run a BP285 on standard size followers. After some time, the cam pushed out a follower. So for a BP300 double check or ask advice for at Piper.

    Over 220 Bhp can be possible. I would say closer to 230 - 240 bhp if the head is done correct and if the engine react well to the BP300.
    Forgot to say my engine management is DTA s40pro and that my old standard 100k mile engine made 193bhp on 45 webers. I have never heard of the hydraulic follower pushing out before though

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    The problem was the diameter to small. The cam needed a bigger follower. So the cam left the follower, pushing hard to get back on it. Possible they have corrected the profile. As a matter of facts, the fastest cam exist at that time was BP285. There was no BP300 profile available. I should at least contact them.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    I totally agree with vietsatellite 8888

    193 Bhp seems to be a lot for a standard engine but started from the 2300 cc block I do believe this can be possible. Real good cylinder heads. Unfortunately, the block is heavy. I would have left it on carburetors anyway. There will be no improvement in useful power with the switch to fuel injection. Only a lot extra cost and more dyno time to get it right.

    A friend of mine has turbo charged this engine with great success in a Sierra (he started with the 8V version, same block). All on twin injectors and Gotech MiniX ECU. The only problem they faced was lack of oil pressure at lower RPM. Pushing out the big ends with the hugh torque. Now he runs an oil pump fitted with a smaller gear wheel. Speeding up the pump and problem solved. I think he bought the gear from an industrial supplier.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Don't you need valve reliefs with those pistons?

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Don't you need valve reliefs with those pistons?
    No. The 300h cams are safe with standard pistons so i designed the new ones to have the same crown height as the standard piston but with the correct size crown in the middle to raise the cr with out the need for cut outs as the valves are in different places ie 1/3 are the same and 2/4 have the same valve offset.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    I totally agree with vietsatellite 8888

    193 Bhp seems to be a lot for a standard engine but started from the 2300 cc block I do believe this can be possible. Real good cylinder heads. Unfortunately, the block is heavy. I would have left it on carburetors anyway. There will be no improvement in useful power with the switch to fuel injection. Only a lot extra cost and more dyno time to get it right.

    A friend of mine has turbo charged this engine with great success in a Sierra (he started with the 8V version, same block). All on twin injectors and Gotech MiniX ECU. The only problem they faced was lack of oil pressure at lower RPM. Pushing out the big ends with the hugh torque. Now he runs an oil pump fitted with a smaller gear wheel. Speeding up the pump and problem solved. I think he bought the gear from an industrial supplier.
    It did have standard rs2000 cams but that was it in the old engine. I went for the throttlw bodies as i didn't think the 45's choked down to 38mm would be restrictive? The throttle bodies were were only £540 for the full set up and i already had the ecu it is just the extra cost of the dyno time. The blocks and cranks are massivly heavy but i recon the total engine weight is just a tad lighter than the pinto. Thanks for the heads up on the oil pump. Hopefully i don't encounter the low oil pressure problems he did.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    45 mm with 38 chokes can easy give you the 230 Bhp. Not choking down as much as most try to let you believe. I would not be worried at all.

    I've just build a Porsche 3800 Ltr air cooled flat six. 330 Bhp and 385 Nm on a set of triple 44mm carbs with 36 mm chokes. The same engine made 330 Bhp on 50 mm throttle bodies, only, torque was a lot worse in lower revs. This is equivalent of 220 Bhp in a 4 cylinder.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    45 mm with 38 chokes can easy give you the 230 Bhp. Not choking down as much as most try to let you believe. I would not be worried at all.

    I've just build a Porsche 3800 Ltr air cooled flat six. 330 Bhp and 385 Nm on a set of triple 44mm carbs with 36 mm chokes. The same engine made 330 Bhp on 50 mm throttle bodies, only, torque was a lot worse in lower revs. This is equivalent of 220 Bhp in a 4 cylinder.
    I still have the Webber's so I might have to do a bit of back to back on the dyno change the pump and reg over just to see what is what. It would be very interesting.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Some rolling roads are as accurate as measuring a piece of string lol but I reckon 247bhp and 195lb/ft at a guess on the same rolling road you used with the last engine, but seriously feck the figures it is how it drives when rubber meets road and you burn em off out of corners that matters! : )
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    I agree with Dirk, using TB's that are too large will loose air speed/ramming energy through the intake system, 45mm TB's would be plenty for this engine imho but I would still not like to use 45's over 48mm TB's with this 16V 2341cc bottom end and piper 300 cam + ported head, however if this was a 2.0 engine things would be different, the large cylinders create higher air speed demand in the intake system vs lower cc cylinders, 2.5 millington engines use 50mm TB's iirc but they do make 330bhp top end

    Carbs can be made work quite well, just tuned a pair of 40's on a xflow for fast road and they are pulling cleanly from idle in top gear, but carb size is much more of a compromise than TB's, carbs too large are a lot harder to tune in the low rpm's making the idle jet and emulsion tube selection etc critical but go for a TB that is a little larger than you need and you probably wouldn't notice the difference due to the superior tunability of mapping, but if you use a carb that is just large enough to not restrict top end power and tune them really well they can be just as competitive on rally or race stages, the difference would be most noticeable below 4000rpm imho if the TB is sized correctly vs carbs

    TB's have a Much higher air flow per throttle size diameter since they are wide open with only the throttle shaft and plate in the air path vs carbs with small chokes, thicker throttle plates in most cases and aux vents, a 45 dcoe with 36mm chokes would likely flow very similar air to a 40mm TB, a 42mm TB would likely out flow 45's even with 40mm chokes, and a 45mm TB will flow a heck of a lot more air than 48's, all based on std unmodified webers and jenvey or similar TB's
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    That's correct 45mm Webers can be replaced with 40mm TB's. That's exact what I was doing on my 2 ltr auto-cross engines. I still believe RAM air effect can only work in small tubes. And that was exact what I've seen so many times on my dyno. I don't think the inlet track is a big restriction. Valves are. I'm sometimes surprised how much power I can pull trough a relative small carbs or TB. Only and only when you build high RPM screamers it seems to restrict. More like Bike engines. But these screamers do nothing on a race track. I've seen so many Honda 1600 16V V-tec engines screaming the rods out of the block and get beaten by a VW engines make 30 bhp less.

    If you put a normal cam in an engine, tuning the carburetor will not be to difficult. And yes, in lower RPM the carb will be more into trouble as the fuel injection but time and time again I see this point of "off cam" is not in the RPM range you use in the race. Unless, again, unless your camshaft was chosen to big. The most important part in a tuned engine is the camshaft. The trick is to find the cam with the lowest duration making just maximum power (I should say "useful power").

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by RWD fords rule View Post
    Some rolling roads are as accurate as measuring a piece of string lol but I reckon 247bhp and 195lb/ft at a guess on the same rolling road you used with the last engine, but seriously feck the figures it is how it drives when rubber meets road and you burn em off out of corners that matters! : )
    Funny you should say that as a guy who rally's a 220bhp 2.3 (set on the same rollers as mine) came out for a spin in mine the other day and he said it would tramp his the way it is. I didn't even rev it that hard either as the engine is still fresh so it sounds like a promising start.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    That's correct 45mm Webers can be replaced with 40mm TB's. That's exact what I was doing on my 2 ltr auto-cross engines. I still believe RAM air effect can only work in small tubes. And that was exact what I've seen so many times on my dyno. I don't think the inlet track is a big restriction. Valves are. I'm sometimes surprised how much power I can pull trough a relative small carbs or TB. Only and only when you build high RPM screamers it seems to restrict. More like Bike engines. But these screamers do nothing on a race track. I've seen so many Honda 1600 16V V-tec engines screaming the rods out of the block and get beaten by a VW engines make 30 bhp less.

    If you put a normal cam in an engine, tuning the carburetor will not be to difficult. And yes, in lower RPM the carb will be more into trouble as the fuel injection but time and time again I see this point of "off cam" is not in the RPM range you use in the race. Unless, again, unless your camshaft was chosen to big. The most important part in a tuned engine is the camshaft. The trick is to find the cam with the lowest duration making just maximum power (I should say "useful power").
    Agree 110% with ALL of that, I see big hp screamer engines even S2000 in escorts but I have yet to see one that can actually beat a 195-200bhp pinto on tarmac rally stages, they are completely gutless and I mean useless out of corners when tuners get greedy with cam selection and huge overlap, the air flow simply doesn't know what to do at low rpm other than reverse flow back up the inlet, they sound like monsters but the car is not actually moving away! just sitting there until they reach very big rpm's and finally they get going but big chunk of time is lost away from every corner and can never be made up on the straights regardless of 6 speed gearing etc

    Absolutely, choosing a cam that has just enough duration to make the torque you need rather than hp and respectable hp + minimal overlap is an absolute winner for rallying, wider LSA's lower overlap and also create more top end as the exhaust valve opens sooner reducing pumping losses, end result you get much more low end punch, good mid range and very good top end with bags of punch out of corners and enough top end to continue power after peak hp for the widest power band possible, cams with much tighter LSA's have very crap low end, better mid range and a lot less top end after peak power, all focused on peak torque and HP numbers but not actually Fast for rallying unless you have TB's and 6 speed to make the super narrow rev range work and TB's so that it doesn't want to die at low revs away from a hairpin

    The numbers game really is a wast of time and money for rallying, I would always sooner a wider spread of power and less peak hp rather than all or nothing numbers and gutless out of corners, even 30bhp less as you said can be Much faster over all and also last a lot longer needing lower average rpm's used to Move the car with Torque, that is what moves the car Not HP, put a motorbike engine in a car and you see why, you would need two of them to get the car to really move!

    I also completely agree that tuning carbs on a highly tuned competition rally or race engine to pull Perfectly from idel at WOT is completely impractical in most cases, the engine will Never see this kind of demand on any stages, when exiting a tight corner there will only be light throttle opening applied and WOT from 3500rpm upwards exiting the corner otherwise the rear wheels would spin out and loose traction anyway!, even with TB's WOT from near idle is impractical for a race car when would this ever be needed? for these reasons immediate torque off idle is not necessary for rally or race and even larger carbs can be tuned to pull very well from practical rpm's without loosing hardly anything to TB's imho, TB's are faster for sure but I would like to see the results of back to back testing

    However there is no questioning that it is a much easier job to tune TB's than carbs as they aren't infinitely tunable like TB's almost are



    I think this 2.3 engine here will be very nice to drive, cam selection is good, torque will be produced from low rpm and plenty of top end without having to rev the nuts off it, should be a nice reliable motor that way and lots of fun! : )
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Ok, so I also totally agree for 110%, except the fact tuning TB's (fuel injection) would go easier and faster as carburetors. I think it all depends on your experiences. I don't want to let anybody believe I'm the pope of carbs but if I take for example the Porsche 3800 Ltr I just tuned. I fitted a set of jets I was almost sure it would be very close (how,.... from experiences). I did tested some other setting just to see how close I was and to be sure the setting was OK. It finally also left with this setting. So it means, I was done after a few pulls and some "running over the map" (if you know what I mean). If not, just tried different throttle settings with more or less brake power and tested it feels nice or not)

    I've spend more time mapping the ignition. If I would had fitted fuel injection it was probably on the dyno for hours for just receiving the same results. And if I compare the price for the full fuel injection kit against my carburetor set, I should say have the price.

    I fit carburetors everyday. I can tell you, in most situations I seldom need to swop more than a jet or 2. When cars run race cams, OK, it will take longer but I'm always surprised to see how fast you can get a good average setting with a carburetor. Sometimes very difficult to beat with fuel injection systems.

    Let us take a new example. If I would prepare a DCOE 45mm set for this 2300 engine, I'm almost sure I can fit basic jets which will make the engine run clean straight out of the box and it will not be far from max power, if max power would not be reached already. Try this with fuel injection!!! Only if all stuff is exact the same you may send a base map but in most cases, the base map will only make it run. Run with many stops and seldom clean.
    Last edited by Dyno; 15-04-2014 at 22:19.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Totally agree there, too, I always get a very good basic carb setting, for example using 4 times the choke size for main jet and usually 180 to 200 airs in 40's right up to 50's and F11 etubes, the idle jets are where it takes the most time tuning, getting the right size and idle fueling + off idle up to when the main jet takes over, this is where the time is spent to get it running really good, a lot of rolling road tuners don't bother to get this area right and just focus on the easy to tune main fuel system parts

    When I say TB's are easier to tune and will run better than carbs I am talking about quite a small difference in performance for a competition engine, I mean you would probably find it very hard to tell the difference visually seeing it in action or in the car in the most often used rev range, only the stage times would show the difference and even then I certainly would not expect much difference vs a well tuned carb setup

    Carbs are Way faster to get a good running setting, most times now I don't even have to tune the mains, etubes or airs to get it running really well with a nice sandy light brown colour on the plugs and good 12.5 to 13 to 1 AFR, most of the time is spent fine tuning the idle jets and lower rpm range, tuning TB's with management takes Much Longer, but it is easier work in that it is all laptop work and the lower rpm range can be almost infinitely tuned, but when it comes to making torque and HP in the most often used rpm range carbs can be a real match for TB's and for a fraction of the cost
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Yes, most important is tick over, idle jet etc.. More difficult if you always start form a different carburetor. I try to use always the same new carburetor. This makes the job a lot easier. And I can tell you A LOT. After some time it's a matter of trying 2 or 3 jet and done. If you start today with 2 prog holes, tomorrow 3 and the day after a throttle plate with 80° instead of 78° it's always starting from scratch. I prefer using always the same basic.

    About laptops, I hate them in the workshop. In the time needed to fire them op, make connection to the ECU etc, my progression dyno work is usually already done. It may be easier as carbs but I remember it always took me a very long time to make this "light load" sites correct. Full load, yes, this can be tuned very fast and very accurate. Because you can measure power and get help from reading Lambda. At light load, tick over it's more "feeling".

    Yes, so many dipsticks only tune full load on there dyno, not spending any attention to light load sites and progression and than wondering why there 360 Bhp engine get beaten by a 330 Bhp one.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    some great talks going on in this thread guys some very intresting and valid points made. There will be a lot of work on the lower load sites as they are the most important one with what i do with the car. Any way the car is going on the rollers thursday so we will see what happens and if she makes some decent power and drivability.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    has it been on the dyno yet?
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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by SidewaysMk1 View Post
    has it been on the dyno yet?
    Funny you ask there is an update from today coming now :P power figure on a post card please.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Ran the car up on the rollers today my and my mate james are mapping it as i have always fancied it. Here is the original run on the 'base' map

    As i thought no pull at all under 4k which i could feel and a good pull to the end of the map 6500rpm


    so we started mapping 1500rpm 2500rpm 4000rpm and 5000rpm we picked a couple of sites across the rev range just to see if what we were doing was correct and making power and it seams to be working. We mapped all the tps load sites for the stated rpms too so a fair bit off mapping done for amatures.


    there are massive power differences and drivabilty low in the map but there is still that nasty flat spot (yet to be mapped) between 3/4k. Power at 6650rpm was 200bhp and at 5680rpm 208n/m. Not bad but these will improve with alot of time spent on the map.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    not bad, very good power, had to translate the torque lol, bout 153 ftlbs, was expecting more torque from it. how you finding the mapping? easy or hard?
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by caprimentle View Post
    not bad, very good power, had to translate the torque lol, bout 153 ftlbs, was expecting more torque from it. how you finding the mapping? easy or hard?
    Yeah it is poor across the board at the moment the map isn!'t suited to my engine. It is also over fueling as the fpr is set to 3.5bar the same as the car the map came off but my injectors are 40cc bigger I didn't want to run her lean. If I run at 80/90℅ throttle it accelerates faster than full throttle so plenty to come. Loads more revs and power to come looking for 250bhp at the fly!

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    Pole Position Decade Plus User freddy686868's Avatar

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    It was difficult to set up the rollers and all the wide band lambdas (2 to compair values) so that took 2 two hours on its own but after that it took 1.45 to map 1500rpm 2500rpm 4000rpm and 5000rpm right the way through all the GPS load sites so not too bad once you get into it.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Well shes done and it is mad!
    Well mapping has been finished by me and mainly my mate we are not experts by a long shot but this is what we went from to how it is now.

    First run




    mapped certain sites to see if we were making a difference


    all finished (as far as we could go on our knolage) not bad for a home build hero


    pulls like a train in every gear the ratios make the most of the power band as it only drops 2500rpm in every gear apart from 4th/5th 500rpm. We only went to 7000rpm full throttle and around the lower tps loadings to check the fueling but we didn'y advance the ignition and played it safe it is easy to make it go pop at that rpm. Videos to follow.

    It did make 220bhp at the fly on road tyres but one blew out ao we changed them back to the A021r tyres and it was 205bhp at the fly then.


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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    I did a I4 many years ago , spec was

    Stock 2.3
    Balancer shafts removed
    Stocks rods balanced ARP rod bolts
    Stock Pistons decked 12 thou to get @ 10.5.1
    Stock head gasket
    CCM ported head
    KC Gravel cams
    Weber Alpha with 45 throttle bodies
    Tony Law manifold

    If I can remember 185 wheels and 175ft .... Mapped on Northampton Motorsport Rollers .....

    It did go rather well .... Also did a I4 MK5 RS 2000 Engine

    Farndon rods - 5mm in length
    Cosworth Pistons , was like rocking horse shit to get hold of at the time ...
    Billet Gravel cams / Harvey Gibbs spec
    CCM Head with solid lifter conversion
    Tony Law Exhaust
    Pectel T3 with 45 throttle bodies

    Around 180 wheels @ 8200 and 168 ft Mapped by Harvey Gibbs on his Superflow dyno

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    have you considered changen the oil pump chain to an rs 1,? shorter chain i cant for the life of me remember if i had to change the sproket on the crank or the pump but 1 of them i remember havin to swap.,

    any woo thats some impressive figures bud considering its all home brew, i tilt my cap to thee,

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by rwd2ltrfiesta View Post
    have you considered changen the oil pump chain to an rs 1,? shorter chain i cant for the life of me remember if i had to change the sproket on the crank or the pump but 1 of them i remember havin to swap.,

    any woo thats some impressive figures bud considering its all home brew, i tilt my cap to thee,
    From what i can see i have to keep the drive down to the bottom one because of the sump i am using. But i am alway open to ideas. Also it is a strong engine but i think i will try the 45 webers on her after germany as i think the 48 bodies are too big in diameter and the velocity through the inlet is too slow. I think i can keep the top end and get more bottom end on the 45's but we will see.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    but i think i will try the 45 webers on her after germany as i think the 48 bodies are too big in diameter and the velocity through the inlet is too slow
    i cant see you will gain anything doing that. the thing with having carbs too big is you loose the signal that pulls fuel through the jets, thats why carbs too big leave a massive hole it the lower end of the rev range, if your tbs are too big all that tends to happen is most of the response comes in teh early part of teh throttle opening and theres very little difference between say 80% and 100% throttle opening, you can either drive round that or modify the linkage so the butterflies open slower initally

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Agree with Graham, waste of time fitting 45's when you already have 48mm TB's, yes they are on the larger side for this build but I would not change them for 45mm carbs at this stage since it is already tuned and running

    Tbh 210NM 155lb/ft is way lower than I would expect from a 2341cc 16V engine, I would expect that kind of torque from a 2.0 8 valve rally/race, this should make more like 190lb/ft+ at the flywheel even if the cams are mild, with that kind of CC and a ported std valve size head I would have chosen piper 320M 3000 to 8500rpm power band but would pull from lower revs with high CC, 11.84mm inlet lift vs 10.80mm and the listed duration is still only 288* that would let the engine breath a lot better than 300H but hey it still should be making at least 180lb/ft with mild cams and TB's, good manifold, 2.5" exhaust etc


    Maybe the rolling road is reading low, would be interesting to try a power run on another possibly more accurate rollers

    I can't imagine that torque value being anywhere near accurate unless the inlet cam was massively retarded or a big flow restriction somewhere
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Yeah it does seem a bit down on power/torque, much the same as my Pinto although it picks up about 750rpm earlier, i was expecting a chunk more, did the last one you did not produce 190lb/ft?
    i was going to say maybe not enough compression but if the calcs are right and static is 12:1 there might be some gains from playing with cam timing, perhaps a bit of advance.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Yeah it does seem a bit down on power/torque, much the same as my Pinto although it picks up about 750rpm earlier, i was expecting a chunk more, did the last one you did not produce 190lb/ft?
    i was going to say maybe not enough compression but if the calcs are right and static is 12:1 there might be some gains from playing with cam timing, perhaps a bit of advance.
    i have been thinking about this and looking at the figures from both rollers watching videos of both engines pulling on track and the new engine is deffo head an shoulders above the old lump but the figures from the other rollers do seam a little high. When i have time i will be going to a few different rolling roads and see what the variance is like on them. My mate mapped his 16vtec on the same rollers recently and he got 183bhp out of his standard B16B so the rollers seam to be right i will check my inlet timing again though just to make sure.





    Last edited by freddy686868; 10-07-2014 at 16:07.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by RWD fords rule View Post
    Agree with Graham, waste of time fitting 45's when you already have 48mm TB's, yes they are on the larger side for this build but I would not change them for 45mm carbs at this stage since it is already tuned and running

    Tbh 210NM 155lb/ft is way lower than I would expect from a 2341cc 16V engine, I would expect that kind of torque from a 2.0 8 valve rally/race, this should make more like 190lb/ft+ at the flywheel even if the cams are mild, with that kind of CC and a ported std valve size head I would have chosen piper 320M 3000 to 8500rpm power band but would pull from lower revs with high CC, 11.84mm inlet lift vs 10.80mm and the listed duration is still only 288* that would let the engine breath a lot better than 300H but hey it still should be making at least 180lb/ft with mild cams and TB's, good manifold, 2.5" exhaust etc


    Maybe the rolling road is reading low, would be interesting to try a power run on another possibly more accurate rollers

    I can't imagine that torque value being anywhere near accurate unless the inlet cam was massively retarded or a big flow restriction somewhere
    We are due to go back on the rollers soon to try and get more power below 3.5k i think we will play with the cam timing instead to see what it does. Pulls almost the same as a 270bhp seat leon FR so is no slouch but if i can get more ponies i'm up for that. Also i am a bit pissed off with the 300H cams as i was told to go for them by other forum members on the rs2000-16v forum and then when i didn't get the power they turned round and said should have used the 320M cams but i am no engine builder nor do i know a lot about mapping but i will give anything a go and it is a steep learning curve, although it is made much easier with you guys helping out.
    Last edited by freddy686868; 10-07-2014 at 16:15.

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by freddy686868 View Post
    We are due to go back on the rollers soon to try and get more power below 3.5k i think we will play with the cam timing instead to see what it does. Pulls almost the same as a 270bhp seat leon FR so is no slouch but if i can get more ponies i'm up for that.
    Rolling roads are never accurate anyway, you just tune for a change never a figure, as a matter of interest what cylinder pressures are you seeing cold cranking WOT?

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Rolling roads are never accurate anyway, you just tune for a change never a figure, as a matter of interest what cylinder pressures are you seeing cold cranking WOT?
    Exactly and good idea, see wat the cranking pressures are like with the engine warmed up, all of the plugs out and the throttle held at WOT while cranking with a fully charged battery
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: 2341cc 12/1 16v cammed 48mm jenveys, guess the power

    Looking at this vid it sounds healthy

    I imagine the torque figure is just a low reading, rolling roads are as accurate as measuring with a rubber band lol, useful for back to back testing on the same day with same tyres and air temps etc but nothing like the accuracy of a dyno

    How it goes is much more important, looks good

    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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