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Thread: 16 or 20v

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    16 or 20v

    While I am tempted by the 20v I am worried about the thermostat and dizzy relocation as I have very limited space.

    I am alternatively looking at the 16v, hopefully someone has one already setup lurking in a garage which would make my conversion much more simple.

    I am putting the 4age into a 1974 lotus elan which has been asset stripped of engine, box, prop, rad, ancilliaries...

    My question really is, do I pay more for a 20v BT or continue my search for a 3rd gen 16v already setup

    I have no preference of carbs or efi, part of the attraction of the 20v is that it would be ready to run as is with a new ecu.

    Thanks

    L

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    Re: 16 or 20v

    In reply to my own thread and after reading through the forum I think that I am looking at two routes:

    1) 16v 4age with 40 webers (this gets me a classic look in the classic enginebay, but finding a working 16v with a manifold and webers in place is proving a task)
    2) 20v blacktop with omec... it is a fully working solution, but is properly expensive !

    As I am on a budget, and to maitain the look of the enginebay, I am leaning to 1)

    Your advice and guidance appreciated

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    Re: 16 or 20v

    When looking at 16v/20v installs you need to also consider what power, potential tuning you want from it, fuel injection or carbs asides from how it looks in the bay (i.e does it look period), availability etc.

    With the 16v, yes the engines are now a little more difficult to find (ideally you would want the late 7 rib small port), but the carb manifold is readily available from Neil at 105speed, twin 40's are easily available second hand, exhaust could be a modified ae86 manifold or a custom manifold your choice. Also installing a hyperpak ignition module would make the dizzy a full blown dizzy rather than just a trigger so the ecu becomes redunant and you wire it just like any standard crossflow or pinto.
    Get the cam cover letters machined off flush and you would have a very classic looking engine bay and around 130-140bhp on tap plus the joys of balancing carbs. No mods to your fuel tank necessary bar installing a carb spec electric pump and fuel pressure regulator. Lots of parts available if you fancy more power but beyond 180bhp starts to get expensive but not as expensive as with a 20v!

    If you went with the 20v which are even harder to lay your hands on. Then there are two options Silvertop and Blacktop, the later having 165bhp on tap. These come with itb's as standard and require a fuel injection tank setup to either mods to your fuel tank or a swirl pot. The waterline can be dealt with using a water line kit, Sam Q of SQ Engineering www.S-86.com does a sweet little kit for this. Using Omex would mean the dizzy can be removed and the trigger is then integrated into the front pulley with a 36-1 trigger wheel and sensor. Again modified exhaust manifold or custom (bear in mind the 20v exhaust flange bolt holes are slightly different to the 16v so a 16v shelf item wont fit straight on). The cam cover is plain apart from the words 'twincam 20' but wont have a classic look. Also being fuel injection makes it alot better on fuel and it very much looks after itself most of the time.
    These can be taken to 180bhp quite easily with cams but beyond that gets very expensive.

    Both can be bolted to either a type 9 using a raw engineering bellhousing or a rare as rocking horse poo Toyota T50 box (ae86 box) but be aware there are two clutch sizes 200mm (early 16v) and 212mm (late 16v and all 20v). Standard toyota ae86 clutch kit (200mm) and spigot bearing for the yota box and but you'll need a late 16v or 20v pressure plate (212mm) with a 215mm AP HD type 9 clutch plate for a type 9 along with a type 9 sized spigot bearing for the crank, rs2000 clutch arm and release bearing.
    (All non rwd 16v and all 20v's didnt have a spigot bearing fitted. Only early 16v big port rwd engines did I believe)

    The 20v is more expensive to install, and putting the gearbox costs aside I've always reckoned you could easily do the whole 16v install for the average cost of a 20v blacktop.

    I've got pretty much all the 20v pricing and most of the part numbers at home which I'm happy to post for you. And I can put some budget costs against the 16v also to give you an idea of cost comparison. But reading your second post I think I know what your answer will be

    Hope that answer helps

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    Re: 16 or 20v

    Yes, I think I will have to post a wanted ad for a late 16v and go the classic route !

    Has anyone put an mt75 5 speed box on the 4age ? (On phone, I will search forum later !?

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    Re: 16 or 20v

    Hi,

    20v Blacktop is the way to go if you want to stay n/a. 20v Silvertop is for forced induction maybe in the future.

    Dont worry about the 20v distributor at the back or water outlets. If Iwas doing this again I would simply Go to SQ Engineering and order 2 items:

    1) Distributor location kit. - Moves distributor cap to the front of the engine.
    2) Water kit - Brilliant bit of kit. Used this on my conversion and is the best value water kit out there on the market.

    You dont need a omex 600 either. Use the standard ecu and loom. I can help you wire up a standard blacktop. Ive shown someone on here how to do it before. Its easy and plus its free ;-). I got all the correct oem sensors still for this conversion if your interested.

    I studied this conversion for nearly 2 years before doing it in the escort. I used omex because i planned to do engine mods later on so I would have needed a aftermarket ECU.

    16v is a great engine too, but no match for a 20v Blacktop. 8500 rpm and a awesome induction sound is standard issue. Shout up if you need anymore info or help
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    Re: 16 or 20v

    ok, another question

    I know that a 16v fits into my chassis with one manageble mod to clear the lower pulley, is the 20 the same dimensions as a 16 ? Last thing I want is a 20v that won't fit !

    In particular the bottom end pulley/sump config and critically overall height as I don't want a power bulge !

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    Re: 16 or 20v

    Quote Originally Posted by Laikathedog View Post
    Yes, I think I will have to post a wanted ad for a late 16v and go the classic route !

    Has anyone put an mt75 5 speed box on the 4age ? (On phone, I will search forum later !?
    The MT75 gearbox has an integral bellhousing designed for a ford engine-gearbox bolt arrangement, this is not the same bolt arrangement as the 4age hence either using the toyota t50 box or a ford type 9 box with the adapter bellhousing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laikathedog View Post
    ok, another question

    I know that a 16v fits into my chassis with one manageble mod to clear the lower pulley, is the 20 the same dimensions as a 16 ? Last thing I want is a 20v that won't fit !

    In particular the bottom end pulley/sump config and critically overall height as I don't want a power bulge !
    The 16v and 20v essentially share the same block in terms of deck height, bore, mounting holes etc, but there minor differences in the sump bolt arrangement, sumps, reinforcing ribs between 16v's and 20v's. So whilst the sumps are slightly different and not interchangeable, the pulleys will be in the same place if placed on the same mounts. I doubt there is much difference between the two in terms of overall height, but i cant say for sure as I only have 20v's here

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    Re: 16 or 20v

    i am looking at an MCT75 which is an MT75 with the bell housing removed and drilled as a type 9 so i could use a striker/raw bell housing to get it on the 4age

    my concern being the the mct75 has a shaft that is 178mm long, diameter of 1inch and 23 splines

    is that too long in comparison to a type 9 ?

    i like the MCT75 as the gear lever is in the right place.

    the more i think about it i think a good 20v BT is the way i want to go but i am only being offered 16v in the wanted section, and the only one i found on the net was an ad from 2008 !

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    Re: 16 or 20v

    Ah right, that makes more sense now

    Have a read through the thread below, theres a good diagram of what the type 9 4cyl input shaft length is which is near the same as what you have with the mct75, so you should be ok. I can double check my box input shaft length too if it helps?
    http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=176611

    The 1" dia and 23 splines are the same as a type 9 so the a 215mm pinto clutch will work fine. Not sure about the release bearing & clutch fork side of things though, with a type 9 you would use the rs2000 clutch fork and release bearing.

    Good luck finding a 20v! They are import only engines so are not exactly common and the ones available you pay a premium for. I found mine out of pure luck on driftworks over 3 years ago, right place right time. My mate is dropping a 20v BT in a sprite and he got his off ebay. Bunta20v's was also an ebay job i think....?

    Couple of options for finding a 20v;
    RAW Engineering - they don't source just the engines for customers anymore you have to buy a whole kitcar but they could point you in the right direction.
    Fensport - again don't source them anymore but may still have contacts.
    Ebay - seems ok but you do pay a premium.
    Japanese engine importers may also be able to source one direct from Japan but it will take a while to arrive if not in stock.


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    Re: 16 or 20v

    We import a few from a company called tiger Japanese. Took a few weeks and a bit of work with customs but quite affordable if you can import 3/4 in one pallet.

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    Re: 16 or 20v

    I imported one direct from Canada. Worked out very well. Took about 3-4 weeks to get over. You can strip a lot of bits off it and put them straight on ebay to recoup some money.
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    Re: 16 or 20v

    guys,

    theres a silver top on ebay now, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2714919749...84.m1423.l2649

    what do you think ?

    obviously i would have to clean and service it if only to get rid of the straw

    i would also have to find an ST loom and ECU…

    I have already been to RAW and they convinced me that the 20v was the way to go but couldn't help point me at any !
    Last edited by Laikathedog; 21-05-2014 at 20:03.

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    Re: 16 or 20v

    Go with an aftermarket ECU and sorted?
    Quote Originally Posted by boombang View Post
    Not entirely sure what point I was first trying to make or even sure what point I have made.

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    Re: 16 or 20v

    Quote Originally Posted by Laikathedog View Post
    guys,

    theres a silver top on ebay now, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2714919749...84.m1423.l2649

    what do you think ?

    obviously i would have to clean and service it if only to get rid of the straw

    i would also have to find an ST loom and ECU…

    I have already been to RAW and they convinced me that the 20v was the way to go but couldn't help point me at any !
    It would be best to stick with the BT. If you use a silvertop then you need to run the original air housing as it uses a air flow meter. The solution to this would be a aftermarket ecu such as omex or using BT itb's, loom and ecu with a map sensor. Either way it's a added expense.

    import a BT from Canada. With shipping and customs fees all in for approx £1400. Sell the bits you don't need from it and your down to a £1000. This way you have engine, loom and ecu. It's plain sailing from there. This is who I used.

    http://torontojdm.com/cart.php?targe...ategory_id=117
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    Re: 16 or 20v

    toronto jdm say they no longer supply to the uk

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    Re: 16 or 20v

    OKay, good news

    I have located a 20v in an mot failure, so I have a couple of questions

    On cold start it has what we used to call a death rattle (used to be big end rattle in mgbs...)It went away very quickly... Is this normal ?

    It hasn't been serviced in a while and oil was low.. so maybe a proper service will help !

    It has TRD cams, I have no idea what this means...

    But the engine is verry...boggy 2000 up to 3000rpm, it then kicks in like a turbo ! Is this the cams?

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    Re: 16 or 20v

    i did actually update the above post but it didn't send:

    re TRD and the low power up to 3000 rpm. I think the cams are not to blame,
    I have been googling a lot and suspect a blocked/faulty sensor which has been bodged into the inlet pipe.

    are s-86 still supplying dizzy/themostat relocation kits ? i messaged them and got no response….

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    Re: 16 or 20v

    Quote Originally Posted by Laikathedog View Post
    OKay, good news

    I have located a 20v in an mot failure, so I have a couple of questions

    On cold start it has what we used to call a death rattle (used to be big end rattle in mgbs...)It went away very quickly... Is this normal ?

    It hasn't been serviced in a while and oil was low.. so maybe a proper service will help !

    It has TRD cams, I have no idea what this means...

    But the engine is verry...boggy 2000 up to 3000rpm, it then kicks in like a turbo ! Is this the cams?
    Quote Originally Posted by Laikathedog View Post
    i did actually update the above post but it didn't send:

    re TRD and the low power up to 3000 rpm. I think the cams are not to blame,
    I have been googling a lot and suspect a blocked/faulty sensor which has been bodged into the inlet pipe.

    are s-86 still supplying dizzy/themostat relocation kits ? i messaged them and got no response….
    A worn VVT pulley is a common issue that causes a rattling noise so worth checking. This normally goes away when revved and the oil pressure builds up. Good way to check is to disconnect the vvt solenoid and see if the rattling goes away on start up

    TRD is Toyota Racing Developments, basically the racing division of Toyota so its the equivalent of Mitsubishi Ralliart or Nissans NISMO. However TRD never made cams for the 4age 20v as far as i am aware: http://www.trdparts.jp/english/list_ae111.html
    but TODA another Japanese company do make cams for the 20v which can run with VVT and are a popular choice as a fast road engine so you may have a set of these in there giving a bit more power.
    If the VVT isnt operating correctly as mentioned above and you have a set of cams installed, this could cause it to be a bit more sluggish low down in the rev range as the inlet cam cannot advance/retard to give you the low down response and with cams that pushes the power up the rev range. It could be you problems so just worth checking!

    Sam of SQ Engineering is still supplying various parts including dizzy and thermostat relocation kits with a lot more new parts in development. He has been moving his parts over to CNC machining recently so has been busy from what i've seen from the updates on the SQ Engineering facebook page, was it an PM to him on here or an email direct?

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    Re: 16 or 20v

    i decided at the last moment to go for a 16v twink on twin forties

    now all i am on the beg for a hyperpak and t50 slave servo !

    pickup 2 engines , t50 , carbs , manifolds (in and out) clutch and flywheel on wednesday….

    cutting and shutting chassis in two weeks, sadly working this coming weekend

    will let you know how i get along
    Last edited by Laikathedog; 09-06-2014 at 21:32.

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