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Thread: Duratec dry sump question...

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    Duratec dry sump question...

    Hello everybody!

    I have a Ford Focus race car with an 2.0 Duratec in it, 250 hp spec.

    This weekend i siezed a big end bearing for the second time , probably because a lack of oil pressure (running a baffeled wet sump) .

    I have read som good stuff about Racelines dry sump but i mailed them and they said it's not made for tranverse applications..
    The Cosworth dry sump that burton sells should be good for both inline and transverse engines , quite expensive though..

    I have found an used dry sump on ebay that's marked caterham at the bottom, does anyone know the difference between the cosworth dry sump and the caterham one???

    Do you think i can use the Caterham one? Or should i buy a Pace dry sump kit?


    Thankful for some guidance

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Try talking to AT power.
    http://beta.atpowerthrottles.com/pro...9e6ec02b209ed0

    Superior pump design to others mentioned above.

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    The cosworth one don't work as well as they should mate
    I have heard sometime about a atpower kit recently which does not install any
    Confidence
    Pace kit work
    My kits work ( opi there on the burtonpower site )
    And then there is titans but I probably wouldn't lol

    My kit work with the engine either way round

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacey View Post
    The cosworth one don't work as well as they should mate
    I have heard sometime about a atpower kit recently which does not install any
    Confidence
    Pace kit work
    My kits work ( opi there on the burtonpower site )
    And then there is titans but I probably wouldn't lol

    My kit work with the engine either way round
    Pace don't work in my experience!!, only heard good things about the AT power stuff and they certainly knew what they were talking about when I spoke to them.
    Proof is running one I guess which i will soon be doing.

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    It's very rare that pace stuff don't work , but this could be due to the engine build

    Atpower where do I start lol
    In a word don't be leave all you are told , and when people think they know it all when
    They don't , that's when it all goes wrong
    There dry sump kits are only a copy/spin off of paces
    Then they got the hump with titans about there throttle body's
    Very rich lol

    The most resent I heard of was someone
    Removed a pace kit and brought a atpower kit
    Only to be very disappointed in it
    And then went on to re for the pace kit as if was far better

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    And the funny thing about the system about is the way atpower tell the man to put the oil back into the block .
    As the bloke that told him done it this way years ago while he was at pace and wiped out his own engine
    So he either has a very short memory or is just a little dim

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Raceline and Pace works, as does Titan for Duratec (used them all with no problems).
    Cosworth caused all kinds of problems in Caterham race cars, solved by using Raceline (with Caterham logo)

    If Raceline say it is not for transverse use, then fair enough. I would probably go for tried and trusted Pace set up then

    www.gulfpetrolheads.com

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    I think the race line one also uses the pace pump

    My kits have been use by a fair few people
    With Sbd among them with a n/a 2.0ltr duratec making 307hp in there f3 car
    With the engine totally sealed and reving to 9600

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Wow, lot's of input! Thanks ....

    Here's the sump i found on ebay ,
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CATERHAM-C...item3ce3383e0a

    Thought i could grab a bargain here but after hearing from all of you that i shouldn't i'll guess i will go for the Pace or AT kit...
    It's not so cheap building new engines all the time either

    Kindest Regards
    Fredrik

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Go pace / customer service is poo but the stuff works

    Don't go AT as it will cost you in the long run trust me .

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacey View Post
    Go pace / customer service is poo but the stuff works

    Don't go AT as it will cost you in the long run trust me .
    what is exactly wrong with the at power kit?

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    I won't go into it on here
    But if I get time over the weekend I will be happy to pm you ?

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    please do as I have one going on soon, cheers

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacey View Post
    I think the race line one also uses the pace pump
    OK, so you haven't seen the Raceline one then, it uses a specifically designed internal pump, that replaces the OEM one, so no external belts or pump required.
    Arguably the neatest install and also the most cost effective and like yours in use in several cars putting out 300+ bhp.

    How about some pictures and details of your sump, always interesting to see what options are out there

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails e0296.jpg‎  

    Last edited by dobuy; 22-06-2014 at 06:46.

    www.gulfpetrolheads.com

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Does the raceline one work in an escort?
    What modifications have to be done?

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Click image for larger version Name:	277254_511102868913799_1521801234_o.jpg Views:	320 Size:	42.4 KB ID:	70390

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Quote Originally Posted by doughman View Post
    Does the raceline one work in an escort?
    What modifications have to be done?
    No modifications to sump, but engine needs to be raised about 10mm on standard WCXM mounts

    www.gulfpetrolheads.com

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    That's why I said I think as it's along time ago that I was at pace
    And now seeing that I remember its R E D that use or used the pace pumps

    I assume the unit in the pic works ok
    As I know that the titans and cosworth ones don't due to the scavenge
    Return being far to small and on a long flat chat they suck the tank dry

    Pics of my kits are on the burtonpower website
    And my f3 Reynard kit pics are on Sbd,s website

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    hi lacey do the pace kits need the engine to breath or can the rocker and block breathers be blocked off

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Hello mate

    You should be able to block it all off
    When I was at pace we had customers that did with
    No problems
    But a one way valve can be used if you wanted
    This will let the engine breathe in and not out
    On a turbo car you would reverse it to allow for blow by

    I am waiting on some to come in if you want one mate ?

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacey View Post
    I assume the unit in the pic works ok
    As I know that the titans and cosworth ones don't due to the scavenge
    Return being far to small and on a long flat chat they suck the tank dry
    The Cosworth ones were a bit of a mare for racing Caterham's, that's why they no longer use them
    The Raceline one has had no problems at all and has the option of fitting an extra scavenge pump for "only extreme performance levels will require the need of additional scavenge" It has proven to be fine without the external pump on plain old vanilla sub 300bhp engines.

    You kit looks really nice and to be honest will be a bit easier to fit over a cross member of an Escort, personally I like the neatness of the internal pump, not to mention a 400 quid cheaper price. But horses for courses!

    www.gulfpetrolheads.com

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    I do agree the raceline one is compact , but if you were to add a extra scav stage is that also internal ? Coz if it's external then it will surely defeat the idea of the neatness of it all
    And if it needs a extra scav stage for extreme engines then I very much doubt the normal kit will pull
    Negative crank case pressure

    Thank you I try to do my best lol
    It clears a wcxm as I have one I used to dummy it
    All up while I was designing it all

    I personal proffer a external pump but that's is each to there own

    400 difference in price depends on where you get it from :-)

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Not many people run over 300bhp, which does not defeat the neatness. Pete McEwen who designed it, refined and tested it at Mountune and by a mate of his who did some kind of computational fluid analysis test on it, using the same software he uses for F1 engines.
    Regardless of your doubts, the Raceline DS is a well proven design with dozens in action on racetracks every weekend in Caterhams etc. I have used it on three engines myself with no issues.

    www.gulfpetrolheads.com

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    I'd still like to know what's wrong with the at power kit

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Lacey, you have a pm.

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    I can now do a full DS kit which works in either direction.
    Contact me on jrprmc1@bigpond.com for full details and pics.
    Click image for larger version Name:	IMAG0387small.jpg Views:	240 Size:	102.4 KB ID:	71122Click image for larger version Name:	IMAG0404small.jpg Views:	239 Size:	139.4 KB ID:	71123

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    I have extensive experience of the cosworth kit in a 300 bhp escort, works well and had no problems on circuit or rallying, only prob is the engine sits too high in an escort. Can space the x member down but mucks up the geom. I've converted to pace external system but not tested it yet. Dunno how well it works transverse.

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Dub View Post
    I have extensive experience of the cosworth kit in a 300 bhp escort, works well and had no problems on circuit or rallying, only prob is the engine sits too high in an escort. Can space the x member down but mucks up the geom. I've converted to pace external system but not tested it yet. Dunno how well it works transverse.
    My DS system is designed to fit the Escort in the original crank CL position (not raised) on the original standard X member and OE Pinto engine mount rubbers (on my cast Al. engine mount-to-block) as shown. No changes to X member or steering required. Scavenge pump has huge capacity for any crank-case vacuum you want to run and the tank remains full under all conditions!
    I'm running it in mine at around the 300HP mark and have never even marked a bearing in 3 seasons; I have only changed oil about 4 times in that period whether it needed it or not (LOL) ; proof that it works well.
    Cheers,
    Roger.

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    Question Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Quote Originally Posted by dobuy View Post
    Not many people run over 300bhp, which does not defeat the neatness. Pete McEwen who designed it, refined and tested it at Mountune and by a mate of his who did some kind of computational fluid analysis test on it, using the same software he uses for F1 engines.
    Regardless of your doubts, the Raceline DS is a well proven design with dozens in action on racetracks every weekend in Caterhams etc. I have used it on three engines myself with no issues.
    I've referred to your build several times since starting my latest project. You've done some VERY nice work on your car.
    I know I'm reviving an old thread here, but I just received a Raceline Dry Sump kit, and I noticed that the pump has a lot of backlash compared to other gear type oil pumps I've examined.
    Here's a video I made that shows the backlash.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydnk...ature=youtu.be

    It also has about .002" end play on each shaft.
    Did your pumps exhibit this much backlash?
    How much oil pressure did your systems produce?
    This is a road race engine, around 300hp, that I'll be spinning to around 9,000 rpm, so I want to be sure I have plenty of oil flow and pressure to handle that kind of rpm.

    I also have ARP main studs, and it looks like shortening some studs a bit, as well as clearancing the scraper plates will gain the needed clearance.

    Thanks,
    David

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    From your vid
    Your back lash is minimal
    I have rebuilt a lot of weaver /stock car parts
    And of American manufacturered
    Pumps with far more movement than that from the factory

    Use a good oil from around 15/40 to 20/50 for better results
    And on a duratec you need to restrict oil flow to the head as they pump to much
    Up there and they retain it there

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  32. #31
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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacey View Post
    From your vid
    Your back lash is minimal
    I have rebuilt a lot of weaver /stock car parts
    And of American manufacturered
    Pumps with far more movement than that from the factory

    Use a good oil from around 15/40 to 20/50 for better results
    And on a duratec you need to restrict oil flow to the head as they pump to much
    Up there and they retain it there
    Thanks, that makes me feel much better.

    On another topic, I called Crane Cams yesterday to ask for cam recommendations, and it seems they have discontinued supporting the Duratec.

    I wonder if you could recommend cams and valvetrain for my build.

    This is for a roadrace car, running a T5 trans and a WInters quick change rearend.
    Race weight will be around 1900-2000 pounds with driver.

    The block is a Ranger 2.3, with a modified Forged Ecoboost crank, Molnar forged rods, and Wiseco 12.5:1 forged pistons.
    The head is a 2.5 unit, casting # RF8E5E from a 2010 Fusion, and I have modified the oiling system to feed the front intake cam journal from the main oil feed instead of through the VVT system.
    The head will be fully ported, with 1mm oversize intake and exhaust valves.

    Intakes will be 50mm ITB's, and due to space limitations in the chassis, we're designing a billet intake that will place the throttles as close to the port as possible, and angled up approximately 45 degrees or so.
    I plan to fabricate an airbox over the airhorns, and duct cool air from a remote filter behind the grille

    I'm aiming for peak power to be around 8,000 - 8,500 rpm, and would like to see over 300HP if possible.

    I see cams from Kent Cams, and Cat Cams, but don't know much about either company.
    I do like the Kent Cams design, which comes with an adjustable sprocket standard, and gets rid of the single bolt/friction washer setup, but I need to make sure they offer them in 38 tooth to match my oil pump and crank gears, and chains.

    Your thoughts would be appreciated.

    Thanks,
    David

    PS: I'll also start a new thread with this question, in case anyone else has input.

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    Re: Duratec dry sump question...

    Burtonpower stock Kent cams
    They maybe able help and they will ship

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