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Thread: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

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    Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    I'm wondering whether to bolt or weld the new wings onto my escort van !
    If you bolt front wings onto an escort instead of welding them, add a bolt on strut brace, is this enough to keep the mot man happy?

    what else is required ?

    What are your opinions ?

    Andy

    www.escortmk1.homestead.com

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    Way too much free time Decade Plus User Retromotorsport's Avatar
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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?


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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    Retro,

    Ok so im going to bolt them on the mk2 van !
    but what about the mot man, i'm sure i have heard people say that the wings should be welded on as this is part of the strengthening of the front of the car and the inner wings etc.

    Is there any truth in this statement ?

    Will the mot man be happy if i bolt the wings on and use a bolt on strut brace ? or will i need to take my mk2 van to a mot "friendly" man

    Andy

    www.escortmk1.homestead.com

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    Way too much free time Decade Plus User Retromotorsport's Avatar
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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    If the MoT er drives a sensible car and is under the age of 30 it may be the first MK1/2 he has seen.
    and he won't know whats suposed to be done to the wings.

    Think I've said it before, but when you look at some escorts with newspaper and filler wing rails the bolts seem more than enough to do the job.

    We race cars with bolt on wings with spring rate up in the 800's thats a pounding on the top mounts when the driver needs to take a bit of kerb, with no bad results. And (sorry Tom) look at the "OOopps" thread that fossie has posted, thats a bolted on wing, think Tom said 3rd gear was called when the bails jumped in the way, Look at Jono's (GJUK) banana and the damage a slow crash did to his car with welded wings,

    All I can really say is, the spot welds across the top of the wings may have rusted to the point that maybe 5 are still intact, the attachments down the front panel fall apart sometimes when taking a wing off, and the screws holding the rear edge are still holding the rear edge. So in effect the bolted wing may have the same number of attachments.

    Its advice, it may be wrong, its just a question of what is right for you.

    Gary

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    Using that logic, it would mean that cars with fibre glass wings would no longer be able to pass an MoT test.

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    i had a car failed on fiberglass wings, the mot man said i had to have 12 inches of steel all round the tops of the strut mounts, had to take the wings off and weld a plate onto the wing rail that went out under the wing top to get it through the test.

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    An MoT 'ers life is a nightmare, this is ok on that car but not ok on that other car. Its all down to what he thinks or wether he got his leg over the night before (or she didnt have to let her other half have their way, if the MoT'ers a woman)

    I have two Mot'ers in the garage next door, one will test cars from me one won't, his reason.....

    "they are specialized cars and should be subject to their own test"

    And he said that about a concours RS2000, .... btw he's in his 50's

    The other bloke looks at all areas of the car and applies his knowledge and the guidlines that are in the Ministries Book, which should result in a safe and properly tested vehical.

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    ive changed MOT places now, got a much more accomodating one, headlamp aim and hooter? pah!!

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    Me too Popup.
    Actually changed in '03 as

    ...The story actually deserves a thread of it's own really so I won't go hijacking this one

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    its a modification so it will pass.
    ie
    Rust hole = fail
    drill a hole bigger than the rust and it will pass!!!!

    Dumb but true

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    so how do spaceframed cars get mot's ? and if fibreglass wings put on a car that was made with steel ones fail mot's why do they sell them? i think it comes down to the tester.how do caterhams and similar get mot's?

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    Also, I may be talking bollox and off the subject here, but dont most modern cars have bolt on wings anyways? I know me dad drove into the back of a landrover one morning (daft git ) in a pug 406 n all he had to do was unbolt the wing and bolt another one on. Although, probably different regulations for different cars?

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    You can tell its winter time.... your all missing driving your cars, got nothing to do but worry about but wether this is legal or not.

    So just to keep you all amused heres some rules from a Championship that I have to work around in conjunction with The MSA Blue Book.


    SOUTH EAST MOTOR SPORT ENTHUSIASTS CLUB

    SOUTH EAST SPORTS & SALOON CAR CHALLENGE

    ________________________________________________________________________________________

    1. SPORTING REGULATIONS - GENERAL

    1.1 Title & Jurisdiction:

    The South East Sports and Saloon Car Challenge is a series of trophy races organised and administered by the SOUTH EAST MOTOR SPORT ENTHUSIASTS CLUB [SEMSEC] in accordance with the General Prescriptions of the Royal Automobile Club Motor Sports Association [MSA] and these Regulations.

    1.2. Officials:

    1.2.1. Challenge Co-ordinator & Challenge Secretary:

    Nikki Stevens 6 Orchard Villas, Lower Road, River, Dover, Kent. CT17 0RR
    Telephone: 01304 822292

    1.2.2. Licenced Eligibility Scrutineer:

    John Winder - 4 Henderson Close, Hastings, East Sussex TN34 2DU.
    Telephone: 01424 440364

    1.2.3. Challenge Stewards:

    Norman Redhead - Alan Povey - Jon Low ? Duncan Welch.

    Any three stewards can adjudicate on challenge issues.

    1.3. Competitor Eligibility:

    1.3.1. Entrants must be fully paid up valid membership card holding members of SEMSEC and in possession of valid 2004 MSA Entrants Licences.

    1.3.2. Drivers and Entrant/Drivers must be fully paid up valid membership card holding members of SEMSEC, be Registered for the Challenge and be in possession of valid MSA Competition (Racing) NATIONAL B STATUS licence, or be a professional driver in possession of a valid licence (featuring an EU flag) and medical, issued by the ASN of a member country of the European Union.

    1.3.3. All necessary documentation must be presented for checking at all rounds when signing-on.

    1.4. Registration:

    1.4.1. All DRIVERS must register as competitors for the challenge by returning the Registration Form with the Registration Fee to the Co-ordinator prior to the Final Closing date for the first round being entered.

    1.4.2. The Registration Fee is 20 payable to:- "SEMSEC"

    1.4.3. Registrations will be accepted from 1st January 2004 until the closing date for entries to the penultimate round.

    1.4.4. Registration numbers will be the permanent Competition numbers for the Challenge.


    1.5. Challenge Rounds:

    The challenge will be contested over eight rounds all at Lydden Circuit as follows:-

    Date Circuit Organising Club
    Saturday 3rd April 2004 Lydden SEMSEC
    Monday 3rd May 2004 Lydden SEMSEC
    Saturday 5th June 2004 Lydden SEMSEC
    Saturday 10th July 2004 Lydden SEMSEC
    Sunday 1st August 2004 Lydden SEMSEC
    Saturday 4th September 2004 Lydden SEMSEC
    Sunday 26th September 2004 Lydden SEMSEC
    Saturday 23rd October 2004 Lydden SEMSEC


    1.6. Scoring:

    1.6.1. The South East Sports and Saloon Challenge is a non-championship race series. However points will be awarded to competitors listed as classified finishers in the final results of each race as follows:-

    Finishing position 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th in class and below
    Points awarded 24 20 16 14 12 10 8 6 4 2

    Less one point for each competitor starting the race in the same class, less than the total number of starters in the largest class in the race.

    The driver scoring the most points at each meeting will be deemed the overall winner of the meeting.

    1.6.2. Ties shall be resolved using the formula in J3.4 in the 2004 MSA Yearbook.

    1.7. Awards:

    1.7.1. SEMSEC will provide the Challenge Awards and the promoting club will provide the individual race awards.

    1.7.2. Per Round: Trophies to:
    Class Winners if 3 or more starters in the class.
    2nd in class if 5 or more starters in the class.
    3rd in class if 8 or more starters in the class.
    Where classes have less than 3 starters they may be amalgamated

    1.7.4. Bonuses:

    The Challenge Organising Club will endeavour to obtain sponsored awards or bonuses during the series and reserves the right to introduce same at any time without any obligation to distribute such awards retrospectively.

    1.7.5. Presentations:

    Garlands and Trophies are to be provided for presentation at the end of each race or at an end of the meeting presentation ceremony. Prize money and bonuses, if any, shall be posted to the Entrants within 10 days of the results being declared final after each meeting.

    1.7.6. Entertainment Tax liability:

    In accordance with current Government legislation, the Organisers of each round are legally obliged to withhold tax at the basic rate on all payments to non-UK resident sportsmen/women.

    That is, those persons who do not have a normal permanent residence in the UK. The UK does not include the Isle of Man, Channel Islands or Eire. This means that, as the Organisers, SEMSEC is required to deduct tax at the current rate applicable from any such payments they may make to non-UK residents.

    Under certain circumstances, it may be possible for competitors to enter into an agreement with the Inland Revenue to limit the tax withheld. Any application for such an arrangement must be made in writing and not later than 30 days before the payment is due.

    For further information contact:- The Inland Revenue, Foreign Entertainers Unit, 2nd Floor, Unit 1, Princes Gate, Homer Road, Solihull, West Midlands, Tel: 0121 606 2861, Fax: 0121 606 2865.

    1.7.7. Title to all Trophies:

    In the event of any Provisional Results or Challenge Tables being revised after any provisional presentations and such revisions affect the distribution of any awards the Competitors concerned must return such awards to SEMSEC in good condition within 7 days.

    2. SPORTING REGULATIONS - JUDICIAL PROCEDURES

    2.1. Rounds: In accordance with Section O of the 2004 MSA Yearbook.

    2.2. Challenge: In accordance with Section O of the 2004 MSA Yearbook.

    3. SPORTING REGULATIONS - CHALLENGE RACE MEETINGS & RACE PROCEDURES

    3.1. Entries:

    3.1.1. Competitors are responsible for sending in correct and complete entries with the correct entry fees prior to the entry closing date which shall be three days before each round.

    3.1.2. Incorrect or incomplete entries (Including Driver to be Nominated Entries) are to be held in abeyance until they are complete and correct and the date of receipt for acceptance of entry purposes shall be the date on which the Secretary of the Meeting receives the missing or corrected information or fee.

    3.1.3. Any withdrawal of Entry or driver/Car changes made after acceptance of any entry must be notified to the Secretary of the Meeting in writing. If Driver/Vehicle changes are made after publication of Entry Lists with Final Instructions the Competitor concerned must apply for approval of acceptance by the Stewards of the Meeting BEFORE signing-on.

    3.1.4. The Maximum Entry Fee for each round shall be 200.00 however it is intended that the entry fee for most rounds will be 140.00.

    Plus a 15 Late Entry Surcharge imposed by the Race Meeting Organisers for any entry received after 10 days prior to the date of a meeting.

    3.1.5. In the event of any rounds being oversubscribed the Organising Club, in liaison with the Co-ordinator may at their discretion run Qualification Races. For qualification race procedures see 3.12 of these Regulations.

    3.1.6. Reserves are to be nominated on the Final List of Entries published with Final Instructions or Amendment Sheet Bulletins. All Reserves will practice and replace withdrawn or retired entries in Reserve Number order irrespective of class. If Reserves are given Grid Places prior to issue of the first Grid Sheets for any round the times set in Practice shall determine their grid positions. If Reserves are given places after publication of the grid sheet and prior to cars being collected in the Official "Assembly Areas" they will be placed at the rear of the Grid and be started without any time delay.
    Otherwise, they will be held in the "Assembly Area" and be released to start the race after the last car to start the GREEN FLAG LAP or last car to take the start has passed the start line or pit lane exit. Such approval to start MUST be obtained from the Clerk of the Course.

    3.2. Briefings:

    Organisers should notify competitors of the times and locations for all briefings in the Final Instructions for all meetings. Competitors must attend all briefings.

    3.3. Practice:

    The minimum period of practice to be as specified in the MSA Regulations.

    Should any Practice Session be disrupted the Clerk of the Course shall not be obliged to resume the session or re-run sessions to achieve the challenge criteria and the decision of the Clerk of the Course shall be final.

    3.4. Qualification:

    Each driver should complete a minimum of 3 laps practice in the car to be raced and in the correct session in order to qualify for selection and order of precedence as set out in the MSA Regulations J4.4. The Clerk of the Course and/or Stewards of the Meeting shall have the right to exclude any driver whose practice times or driving are considered to be unsatisfactory - as per MSA Regulation J 4.4.3.


    3.5. Races:

    The standard minimum scheduled distance shall be 12 miles whenever practicable but should any race distance be reduced at the discretion of the Clerk of the Course or Stewards of the Meeting it shall still count as a full points scoring round.

    (The procedure for qualification races is specified in 3.12)


    3.6. Starts:

    3.6.1. All race start countdowns are to have a minimum elapsed period of 3 minutes from the time all cars are released from the Paddock Assembly Area to the start of the Green flag Lap(s) in the formation as specified on the Track Licence for the circuit.

    3.6.2. The minimum Countdown procedures/Audible warning sequence shall be:-

    Standing Starts:

    1 minute to start of Green Flag laps - Start Engines/Clear Grid.
    30 Seconds - Visible/audible warning of the start of Green Flag lap(s).

    3.6.3. The use of tyre heating/heat retention devices, tyre treatments and compounds is prohibited.

    3.6.4. Any cars removed from the grid after the 1 minute stage or driven into the Paddock on Green Flag lap shall be held in the Assembly Area, and may start the race after the last car to take the start from the grid has passed the start line.

    3.6.5. Any drivers unable to start the Green Flag lap or start are required to indicate their situation as per MSA Regulation J 13.10.2 and any drivers unable to maintain grid positions on the Green Flag Lap to the extent that ALL other cars are ahead of them, may complete the Green Flag lap but MUST remain at the rear of the last row of the grid but ahead of any cars to be started with a time delay.

    3.6.6. Excessive weaving to warm-up tyres - using more than 50% of the track width, and falling back in order to accelerate and practice starts, is prohibited.

    3.6.7. A five second board will be used to indicate that the grid is complete. The red lights will be switched on five seconds after the board is withdrawn.

    In the event of any RED/GREEN starting lights failure the Starter will revert to use of the National Flag.

    3.7. Race Stops.

    3.7.1. Should the need arise to stop any race or practice, RED LIGHTS will be switched on at the Start line and RED FLAGS will be displayed at the Start line and at all Marshals Signalling Points around the Circuit.

    This is the signal for all drivers to cease circulating at racing speeds, to slow to a safe and reasonable pace and to return to the starting grid area which will automatically become a Parc Ferme area.

    Cars may not enter the pits unless directed to do so. Work on cars already in the pits must cease when a race is stopped.

    3.7.2. Case A ? Less than two laps completed by race leader.

    The race will be null and void. The race will re-start from the original grid positions. Competitors unable to take the restart may be replaced by reserves who will start from the back of the grid in reserve order. Gaps on the grid should not be closed up. The length of the re-started race will be determined by the Clerk of the Course.


    3.7.3. Case B - More than 2 laps completed by the race leader but less than 50%.

    The race will restart from a grid set out by the finishing order of part 1, (as per J5.4.4). The final result will be the finishing order at the end of part 2. The length of the re-started race will be determined by the Clerk of the Course.

    3.7.4. If the leader has completed more than 50% of the race distance or duration it shall not be re-started and the results will be declared in accordance with MSA regulation J.5.4.4.

    3.8. Re-Scrutiny:

    All vehicles reported involved in contact incidents during races or practice must be re-presented to the Scrutineers before continuing in the races or practice.

    3.9. Assembly Area Safety:

    3.9.1. Entrants must at all times ensure that the MSA, Circuit Management and Organising Club Safety Regulations are complied with at all times.

    3.9.2. Assembly Area: The diagonal crossed yellow box lane is to be kept unobstructed to allow safe passage of cars at all times. The onus shall be on all Drivers to take all due care and drive at minimum speeds in the Assembly Area.

    3.9.3. Refuelling: May only be carried out in accordance with the MSA J. 14 Regulations, Circuit Management Regulations and the SR's or Final Instructions issued for each Circuit/Meeting.

    3.10. Race finishes:

    After taking the Chequered Flag drivers are to required to: Progressively and safely slow down, remain behind any competitors ahead of them, return to the Paddock entrance as instructed, comply with any directions given by Marshals or Officials and to keep their helmets on and harnesses done up while on the circuit or in the paddock return road.

    3.11. Results:

    All Practice Time sheets, Grids, Race Results are to be deemed PROVISIONAL until all vehicles are released by Scrutineers after Post Practice/Race Scrutineering and/or after completion of any Judicial or Technical Procedures.

    3.12. Qualification Races

    The decision to run Qualification races is entirely at the discretion of the club(s) organising each round according to the number of entries received for such rounds. All affected Competitors must be notified in writing, with their Final Instructions, that this provision will be applied.

    4. CHALLENGE RACE PENALTIES:

    4.1. Infringements of Technical Regulations:

    4.1.1. Arising from post practice Scrutineering or Judicial Action:
    Minimum Penalty: The provisions of MSA REGULATION O.3.3.

    4.1.2. Arising from post race Scrutineering or Judicial Action:
    Minimum Penalty: The provisions of MSA Regulations: O 3.5.1. (a) and (b).

    For infringements deemed to be of a more serious nature the Clerk of the Course and/or Stewards of the Meeting are to invoke the provisions of Regulation O 3.5.1. (c).

    4.2. Infringements of non-technical MSA Regulations and the Sporting Regulations issued for the Challenge:

    As per 2004 MSA Judicial Procedure Regulations plus:


    5. TECHNICAL REGULATIONS

    5.1. INTRODUCTION:

    The following Technical Regulations are set out in accordance with the MSA specified format and it should be clearly understood that if the following texts do not clearly specify that you can do it you should work on the principle that you cannot.

    5.2. GENERAL DESCRIPTION:

    The South East Sports and Saloon Challenge races are for Competitors participating in Saloon and Sports cars complying with MSA Technical Regulations for racing cars.

    5.2.1. CLASSES:

    Class A Sports Racing Cars up to 2000cc,& Sports Cars built & designed for one make Sports Racing Series up to 2000cc
    Class B Silhouette GT Saloons over 1600cc, Production Kit Cars over 1700cc and Production based Sports Cars over 2500cc
    Class C Special Saloons, Production Based Sports Cars up to 2500cc and Forced Induction Modified Production Saloons and Silhouettes GT Saloons up to 1600cc and Production Kit Cars up to 1700cc
    Class D Modified Production Saloons up to 1700cc
    Class E Modified Production Saloons over 1700cc
    Class F Saloons cars complying with the SELOC Challenge regulations
    Class G Invitation Class

    Definitions:
    Sports Racing Cars: A two seater competition vehicle designed and built specifically for racing on closed circuits but excluding one make sports car formulae,. However class A will also include one make sports car formulae cars designed and built specifically for racing on closed circuits eg Radicals,Global Lights etc.

    Production Kit Cars: A two seater sports cars supplied by a commercial manufacture and available to the general public in kit form for use on the public highway. This would include Lotus Seven, Caterham and Westfield type cars, and Production Sports Cars of less than 1000 examples manufactured..

    Production Based Sports Cars- Cars based on any production sports car where more than a 1000 examples have been made for sale to the general public

    Silhouettes GT Saloons
    Hybrid "closed" configuration Special "GT" cars - all cars must be based upon commercially produced 2 or 4 seat closed configuration with a minimum of 200 production run, for which the onus of proof shall rest with the competitor(s).

    Special Saloons - Saloon based cars which have been homologated to FIA Appendix ?J? Group A (or 1/2), or any car the MSA has verified as having been produced in minimum homologation quantities

    Modified Production Saloons - Saloon and hatchback cars which have been derived from cars homologated in FIA Appendix 'J' Group A(N) or Appendix 'J' 1981 Group 1, or from any Car which the MSA has verified as having been produced in minimum homologation quantities, and detailed on an MSA National Homologation form (Production Car Specification Sheet).
    In addition to technical regulations 5.1.3 to 5.17.1, cars in the Modified Production Saloons classes must comply to the following:
    The standard floor pan, sills, door surrounds, bulkheads and roof must remain exactly as produced by the manufacturer in construction, dimension and material. It is prohibited to cut any holes or remove any fixed panels from the standard floor pan, front or rear inner or outer wheel arches, front or rear bulkheads (engine to habitacle and habitacle to boot) for the purpose of mounting or giving clearance to suspension components. Inner wheel arches may only be modified to allow the attachment of shock absorber mountings. It is only permitted to make holes for the passage of cables, fuel, water, oil, hydraulic, instrument or fire extinguisher line. All redundant holes must be covered with metal plates. Reinforcing of the chassis is allowed. Bulkheads and inner wings may only be modified to permit the clearance of the induction system. This shall be understood to include air induction ducting, manifolding, trumpets, ram pipes for engine carburation or fuel injection system only. A maximum clearance dimension of 75mm will be allowed. The removal of underbody sealants is permitted as is minimal modifications to floor pan to allow the fitting of an exhaust silencer to MSA requirements or a fuel tank or safety cell.
    With the exception of the following, no modifications are allowed to external or internal body panels, chassis or unitary construction: Replacement of the front and rear wings and front body panels by lightweight material panels is permitted providing they exactly retain the standard silhouette in side elevation. Bonnet lid, boot lid and door panels may be replaced by lightweight material providing they exactly retain the original standard shape and outline. NOTE: front is defined as a point forward of the baseline of the windscreen. Rear wing is defined as being in the area below the baseline of the windows and rearward of the line of the rear most side door opening. The removal of all exterior chrome/decorative parts is allowed with the exception of the complete radiator grill and headlamp trim is permitted. Suitable blanking covers may be substituted for headlights on all other vehicles. Brake/stop lights must be operational on all cars. The stop lights must only work as a result of applying the brakes and the fitting of any type of other switching device is prohibited. Standard wings, if retained, may be modified by working the original metal and/or fitting wing extensions which must be over the tyre in accordance with vehicle regulations. It is permissible to cut holes in the rear wing extensions of 150sq.cm maximum to accommodate oil coolers. The holes must be parallel and vertical. Wheels and tyres must not be visible through the apertures. Plastic is permitted for side or rear windows. Windscreens must be either laminated or of plastic minimum 4mm thick. Spoilers of standard dimensions and air dams are permitted below the level of the road wheel centres providing they do not protrude beyond the original coachwork in plan view, including bumper, grill etc. Rear spoilers of standard dimensions are only permitted if fitted to the original car as standard equipment. It is prohibited to cut holes in any panels or windows unless specifically permitted. A hole 15cm dia. approx. may be cut next to the driver, for signalling and ventilation. De-misting apertures are permitted in the rear window. They shall be in the form of holes or slots and shall only be positioned to the top or sides, but not both. Extra cooling ducts, louvres, etc., may be fitted to aid cooling. The engine bonnet may be raised at the rear by a maximum of 2" (13 mm). Scoops may be fitted to the engine bonnet provided they project no higher than 2" (50 mm) from the original line of the bonnet. Any induction intakes must be within the confines of these scoops. The total amount of original material that can be removed to accommodate these scoops, ducts etc., may be no more than 300 square inches (2000 square centimetres).
    The engine block and cylinder head must be externally identifiable as that fitted to the original homologated model. All these major components must remain in their original location as envisaged by the manufacturer within 5cm. The replacements of all mechanical components, other than the cylinder block or head, is permitted. Modification to all components is permitted. Oil coolers and additional water radiators are permitted providing they are located within the periphery of the bodywork.
    Forced injection is allowed however forced induction systems are only acceptable on models originally fitted with such a system. Forced induction systems can be removed and replaced with carburettors or fuel injection systems and the model reclassified. All forced induction engines must be fitted within the original equipment manifolds, superchargers and turbo units. However, use of a similar design pattern replacement turbo unit provided it is of the same capacity as original is acceptable. Boost pressure is free and water injection is permissible. A pattern aftermarket exhaust manifold may be used providing it is externally the same as the original. INTERCOOLERS: Dual valve turbo engines may use a single non?standard intercooler provided it fits within the periphery of the car's bodywork. Multi?valve engines must use the standard original intercooler for the model.
    Suspension modifications are unrestricted, but standard pick-up points must be retained although not necessarily used. Additions or modifications of springs, shock absorbers and suspension heights are permitted. The fitting of adjustable suspension components and Watts linkage is permitted. Rear sub-frames, used for suspension and brake components only, may be removed.
    A WORKSHOP MANUAL or Production Car Specification Sheet must be with the car when presented for scrutineering. If a manual or sheet specifically for the model was not available then a manual for the standard version of the vehicle with any other relevant supplementary information to prove the authenticity of the up rated model would be acceptable. The onus is on the entrant to prove eligibility of the model.

    5.1.3. EXTERNAL IDENTIFICATION OF THE MODEL. All cars must be externally recognisable as the model as entered. Manufacturers' decals/badges can be removed but if they are retained they must relate to the model as entered, in particular badges relating to engine capacity.

    5.3. SAFETY REQUIREMENTS: All MSA Appendix Q Safety Criteria Regulations apply as relevant and as follows:- Q.1.1.1. (the only cars permitted to use rollbar/rollcage in compliance with Q.1.1.1. [drawings 1 and 2] will be those under 1200kg fitted with standard steel bodies and doors as originally supplied by vehicle manufacturers for the marque and model), Q.1.1.2., Q.1.1.3., Q.2.1.2. or Q.2.1.3., Q.3.1.2., Q.3.5., Q.5., Q.6., Q.7., Q.8., Q.9., Q.10., Q.12., Q.13.

    5.4. GENERAL TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS & EXCEPTIONS:

    5.4.1. It is permissible to remove passenger seats and encroach upon the space created within the constraints of other compulsory Safety and Eligibility Regulations. The drivers seat positioning must be to one side of the internal bodyshell width centre line, so that no part of the drivers seat straddles the vehicle centre line.

    5.4.2. The use of proprietary racing tyres (slick or treaded) is permitted.

    5.4.3. Sidelights and working generators need not be fitted but battery, self-starter, high intensity rear marker, and two brake lights must be fitted and in normal working order. Headlight units need not be operational. See also; Section 5 (10) sub paragraphs.

    5.5. CHASSIS:

    5.5.1. Unlimited modification allowed provided the requirements of E.12, J.(C), P and Q are complied with excepting as modified by these regulations.

    5.6. BODYWORK:

    5.6.1. Modifications Permitted

    5.6.1.1. General
    Extensive modifications are permitted provided that, unless modified by these Series regulations, the requirements of E.12, J.(c), P and Q are complied with.

    5.6.1.2. If based on a production car : Silhouette

    1. The bodyshell silhouette of the original production marque/model in side elevation MUST be retainedabove a horizontal line drawn through the front to rear road wheel-hub centres of the original car's specified ride-height - except for the silhouette profiles of engine and boot covers and rear boot deck, which may be raised by a maximum of 100mm above the manufacturers original specification but with the original flat and curvature planes retained.

    2. It is NOT permissible to depart from the original engine and boot cover profiles or rear boot deck height if the resultant outlines are beneath the original profile specifications.

    3. The roof line profiles must not be altered.

    4. The rake angle and dimensions of the original windscreen and rear window must be retained and the rear window must be transparent and in its original position.

    5. Any original Aerofoils and other aerodynamic devices may be retained or fitted as per the specifications of the original car.

    6. Additional frontal aerodynamic devices are permitted but must not project forward in excess of the original plan view or silhouette (excluding bumpers) by more than 350mm or exceed the external bodyshell wheel arch width extremities, and all such devices must be located entirely below the height of the wheel hub centres of the original car.

    7. Aerodynamic devices at the rear of the cars must not extend more than 400mm beyond the rear of the original bodyshell at it rearmost point.

    8. No part of any non-original Aerodynamic devices - rear wings and/or trim tabs - may exceed the height of the roof line of any car. In the case of otherwise eligible marques with "High Wing" models the original wing may be retained subject to there being no alterations whatsoever to any of the original specifications, dimensions, profiles and materials.

    5.6.1.3. Ground Clearance - 4cms.

    No part of the underside or components thereof must come into contact with the ground should any tyre become fully deflated.

    5.7. ENGINE

    5.7.1. Unlimited modifications are permitted, including total replacement by a non-original unit for the bodyshell Marque/Model. All engines MUST however have been derived from a Production 4 Stroke Petrol car or motorcycle engine.

    5.7.2. The engine may be located and orientated as desired within 5.(7).3. parameters and limitations.

    5.7.3. For front engine cars the rearmost face of the gearbox (excluding tailshaft and any gearlever extension) must be forward of the wheelbase mid-point. For rear engine cars no part of the engine block casting may be forward of the wheelbase mid-point.

    5.7.4. In the case of the commercially produced car from which the vehicle is based being equipped with a front engine/rear gearbox configuration then such a configuration may be retained. If the gearbox is, however, in such cases, relocated to a conventional front engine/integral gearbox configuration then the limitation as detailed above must be complied with.

    5.8. SUSPENSIONS

    5.8.1. Permitted Modifications

    Unlimited modification permitted, including replacement by non-original specification parts.

    5.9. TRANSMISSIONS

    5.9.1. Permitted Modifications

    Unlimited modification permitted, including replacement by non-original specification parts, or total replacement by a non-original unit. Location of gearbox and or final drive or transaxle is unrestricted except as specified in 5.(7).3.

    5.10. ELECTRICS

    5.10.1. Exterior Lighting

    Two rearward facing brake lights must be fitted and be in positions approved by the Eligibility Scrutineer.

    5.10.2. Rear Fog Light

    A High Intensity rearward facing light must be fitted - see MSA Regulation Q5 - in a position approved by the Eligibility Scrutineer.

    5.10.3. Batteries

    The battery may be of non-original specification and be relocated as desired within the provisions of E.12.14.

    5.11. BRAKES

    5.11.1. Permitted Modifications

    Unlimited modification permitted, including replacement by non-original specification parts.

    5.12. WHEELS/STEERING

    5.12.1. Permitted options

    Unlimited modification permitted including replacement by non-original specification parts. Competitors' attention is drawn to E.12.17.

    5.13. TYRES

    5.13.1. Tyres Free.

    5.14. WEIGHTS

    There are no applicable weight restrictions.

    5.15. FUEL TANK/FUEL

    5.15.1. Types

    Within the provisions of E.12.13, J.20 and Q fuel tanks and positions are free.

    5.15.2. Fuel

    "Pump Fuel" - as defined in the 2003 MSA Technical Regulations.

    5.16. SILENCING

    5.16.1. Specification

    Vehicles must be silenced in accordance with E.12.17.

    5.17. NUMBERS/DECALS

    5.17.1. Positions:

    MSA Regulation size Competition Number backgrounds and numerals must be displayed to the satisfaction of the Timekeepers

    6. APPENDICES:

    6.1. Race Organising Club and other useful Contacts:

    Challenge Organising Club Competition Secretary:

    Ken Greenfield - 16 Saxonbury Close, Crowborough, East Sussex, TN6 1EA


    Race Organising Club Secretary:

    SEMSEC Ken Greenfield - 16 Saxonbury Close, Crowborough, East Sussex, TN6 1EA
    Telephone/Fax: 01892 655978 - Evenings 7.30 to 9 pm only.


    6.2. Commercial Undertakings:

    6.2.1. Trade Support.

    6.2.2. Vehicle Decals and Overall patches.

    All vehicles must display a SEMSEC sticker on either side of the car.

    6.2.3. Promotional activities.

    6.3. Oversubscribed races

    If oversubscribed event organisers may, at their own discretion decide to run two races with full points for each race. Drivers may only compete in one of the races. The organising club/handicapper will decide which of the two races the competitors will be entered into.



    2004 SOUTH EAST SPORTS AND SALOON CHALLENGE REGISTRATION FORM.


    TO BE COMPLETED AND RETURNED WITH THE 20 REGISTRATION FEE TO:

    Nikki Stevens, 6 Orchard Villas, Lower Road, River, Dover, Kent CT17 0RR


    Full Name of registering DRIVER
    Full Address (Driver)
    Telephone (Home) Telephone (Mobile)
    Email Address
    MSA Competition Licence details: Transponder No (If Avail)
    ENTRANT - Name/Title
    Full Address:
    Telephone:
    E-Mail:
    ENTRANT's LICENCE DETAILS
    Class Entered (as per Championship Regulation 5)
    Details of car: Formula:Manufacturer:Model:Engine:Engine capacity Steal BodiedForced Induction Yes/No*Yes/No*
    Current Number on Car

    Please provide (ON REVERSE OF THIS FORM) some personal profile details of the driver: Age, marital status, occupation, business or profession, previous motor sport experience and successes if any:-

    Declaration:

    I have read and agree to be bound by the MSA Regulations and Regulations for the Championship(s) for which I am registering, and enclose my 20 Registration Fee. (Cheques payable to SEMSEC please)


    Signed ..........................................................................


    Each section above has about between 1 and 10 pages to read in the MSA Book.


  14. #14
    Mechanic

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    i think i will bolt my wings on !

    Thanks for the info

    Andy

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    Racer Decade Plus User Sideways's Avatar

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    Didn't Mk2's have 2 or three self tapping bolts as well as spot welds along the wing rail as std originally when they were built along with the three down the door pillar???

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    World Champion Decade Plus User markb's Avatar

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    there's 2 on the rail and another one on the bottom by the a post iirc.

  17. #17
    Racer Decade Plus User Sideways's Avatar

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    there's 2 on the rail and another one on the bottom by the a post iirc.
    I thought there was originally, although now most have probably thrown away years ago when wings have been replaced

  18. #18
    World Champion Decade Plus User popuptoaster's Avatar

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    so how do spaceframed cars get mot's ? and if fibreglass wings put on a car that was made with steel ones fail mot's why do they sell them? i think it comes down to the tester.how do caterhams and similar get mot's?
    its cos they have an obviously different suspension mount, if you got a car that has the the strut supported by the inner wing tops, its only thin metal, so i guess they try to make sure you have a decent amount of it surrounding the strut, space framed cars will have a great big piece of tubing supporting a plate with a strut (if it still uses struts) in it.

    most new kit cars have to go through an SVA test now, which makes sure they are safe and legal, then the mot just checks the condition of your car rather than the design of it, there have been rumblings from the european parliment about making ANY modded car have a version of the SVA test, which would be (a) expensive and (b) time consuming as you waited your turn.

    Its worth keeping an eye on this sort of thing, as we could end up like the germans and the french, the germans can only use crash tested parts on their cars (hence the huge oprices of tuned cars and body kits over there) and the french cant do bugger all (so they have to buy in from abroad most of their custom cars) not so relevent to us, but i believe that in Oz they have a list that states what engines/wheel sizes can be used on a particular car if you mod it.


    most of that is from me xmas addled brain cos i cant be arsed to go looking for the facts so may be slightly inacurate but the gist is right!!

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?

    My MK2 has always had bolt on wings and I've owned it 10 years (the owner before me did the work) but I never had any problem. Been to many different testers too and most simply concerned with whether the car was road worthy - no major structural problems, lights indicators horn seat belts etc all in proper working order. Some even ignored the emissions test on the basis that it was running twin carbs and a turbo and they didn't want to fiddle with the settings.

    Any how now that the car is stipped out,a pair of buckets, harnesses, etc, it'll be interesting when I do get her MOT'd. May need to find that friendly MOT chap again just in case they're picky!!

    CheeRS

    Per

  20. #20
    World Champion Decade Plus User Pitstop's Avatar

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    Re: Front Wings, Bolt on or Weld on ?



    I have two Mot'ers in the garage next door, one will test cars from me one won't, his reason.....

    "they are specialized cars and should be subject to their own test"

    And he said that about a concours RS2000, .... btw he's in his 50's


    Report him - Unless there is a very good reason (i.e. the car is too dangerousto test) MoT testers CANNOT refuse to test a car. And if they get the hump and fail it out of spite for no legal reason, you can ask for an appeal form and they can get points on their license.

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