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Thread: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

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    Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    Yesterday I finally got some dyno time in the turbo Capri.

    The spec is basically;
    205 block with standard crank
    YB pistons, rods, oil pump with spray bar and YB winged sump
    Moderatly ported head, standard valves, NH206 cam
    YB intake with "Swedish" style plenum, 3" throttle body
    4x4 Cosworth Sierra intercooler
    Custom pulse split exhaust manifold, 60 mm wastegate
    Holset HX32 turbo (8 cm2 single inlet exhaust housing)
    MS3 management with MS3X, crank trigger and EDIS coil in wastespark mode
    875 cc/min injectors (runs on pump fuel, 98 octane)

    We had an issue with a trigger fault or something at 6300 rpm so all runs were ended at 6000 rpm. Base line boost is 1,1 bar (16 psi) and with minor adjustments we made 226 whp @ 5960 rpm and 325 Nm @ 4574 rpm.

    The engine seemed to like boost (and igniton advance) so we turned the go-fast knob a bit and ended up at 1,8 bar (26,1 psi). 284 wph @ 5964 rpm and 398 Nm @ 4410 rpm.

    At this power level the intercooler is a bit small, it gets saturated so it needs to cool down a bit to repeat the results.

    The roads are now cold and damp, almost icy, so a test drive only gives wheel spin. And a grin! :-)

    Click image for larger version Name:	Dyno_turbo_Capri_151022 (Custom).jpg Views:	171 Size:	127.0 KB ID:	76622

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    Sad I have to inform you. The roads will never be the same again. Damp, cold or not, from now on you will always have wheel spin !!!!

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    well, how much your head is skimmed? what is the aprox. compression ratio? I would say that at 6000 rpm the transmission loss is about 25hp so you should have about 310 bhp at crank (judging by my Sierra's result).

    I just also had my car dynoed and the result is 187 bhp at crank (0,7 bar) and I consider it as not a really good result.

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    No skimming, CR with YB pistons should be around 7.5:1 or so unless I remember incorrectly. A bit lower than I'd really want perhaps but with this kind of boost pressures...well...

    25 bhp loss may be reasonable, I'm not sure. This was on a hub dyno so no tire losses to take into account.

    All figures are from acceleration runs, if we kept the dyno steady state we peaked over 300 whp but that's maybe not too relevant.

    Had a great night and found some new ideas to try :-)

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    OK so this is what I got - sorry for the crappy picture though. Peak power is 187bhp and peak torque is 250 Nm. At 0,7 bar. I don't really like it and I do not understand where the problem is. Also I did notice that my engine (with stock bottom end) is also loving quite high ignition advance, I have around 24 degrees at full boost and 6000 rpm.

    Click image for larger version Name:	12179395_972456112792641_943097276_n.jpg Views:	174 Size:	102.2 KB ID:	76625

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    Quote Originally Posted by kliobas View Post
    OK so this is what I got - sorry for the crappy picture though. Peak power is 187bhp and peak torque is 250 Nm. At 0,7 bar. I don't really like it and I do not understand where the problem is. Also I did notice that my engine (with stock bottom end) is also loving quite high ignition advance, I have around 24 degrees at full boost and 6000 rpm.

    Attachment 76625
    what dont you like about it? 187bhp @.7 bar isnt bad at all

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    wanted more I've got stock compression of 9,2, pretty big turbo which shouldn't create much backpressure, ms2 and pretty good mapping and my expectation was around 210-220

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    so on the same boost your expecting more than a std sierra cosworth has, without the benifit of a better head etc etc???

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    24° is not much for a Pinto turbo. I can't judge with 9,2/1 but with round 8 - 8,5/1 you see numbers like 28°, as it was a NA engine with 11/1 and fast cam.

    Do you use original camshaft? For 200 Bhp, you don't need a huge turbo. Coming in to late.

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    Gustaf, what does a NH206 camshaft looks like?

    Nothing wrong with the power but I feel it's coming in late. Or maybe turbo is on the big side? With wheel hubs, lost of power is very low. I think you got around 300 Bhp at the flywheel. Not bad at all and compared with my dyno numbers realistic. I was using less boost (and had less power). Only, mine came in a lot earlier.

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    Gustaf, do you have any pictures of your engine, manifolds ?



    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    so on the same boost your expecting more than a std sierra cosworth has, without the benifit of a better head etc etc???
    Advanteges of Cosworth is it's head and intake manifold, however I have better turbo, 3" exhaust and higher comp ratio, so the answer is yes

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    Years ago a roller dyno said 167 whp @ 0,67 bar (184 at crank) on my old engine, that was with 8.2:1 compression ratio, Mitsubishi TD04-16T turbo and very crude management. Now that dyno was a bit un known in terms of calibration but the figures seemed to match the performance of the car. Same cam as now.

    I think that a big turbo needs big boost to give power :-) I am actually considering trying a smaller one (Mitsubishi 19T) to see how it works, 300 whp is not very much for a HX32, at least not for the compressor side.

    The NH206 is specced as an injection cam from Swedish grinder Nisse Hedlund. 7,44 mm lobe lift and 281 degrees at 0,3 mm lobe lift.

    I have to start another computer to grab the maps but I can do that later. ISTR that we are around 20 degrees at 1,8 bar but that is with low compression too. We run up to around 40 degrees in some part load situations.

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    Regards

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    Quote Originally Posted by kliobas View Post
    Gustaf, do you have any pictures of your engine, manifolds ?





    Advanteges of Cosworth is it's head and intake manifold, however I have better turbo, 3" exhaust and higher comp ratio, so the answer is yes
    if your head and manifolds flow less air how will your set up make more power? if your running the same boost pressure the cosworth with its better flow much be getting more air into the cylinders.

    dont get me wrong you have decent power but i think your expectations are a bit high, afterall the cosworth wasnt exactly designed on a fag packet and built in a shed

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    TBH, I am a bit surprised about how "low" the YB power is, especially on the early 204 bhp ones. Has someone put a stock one on a dyno to see if the numbers are accurate?

    That said all my experience says that the numbers for kliobas are quite normal. What turbo do you have? Skogen Racing dynoed a stock (stock, nothing changed on the inside, only management) Pinto at 1.8 bar on E85, that gave over 300 whp. Big turbo on that one. I'm not saying their spec is something to follow (I have serious doubts that engine will last) but if you want more power I'd say more boost is the way to go. Or keep the boost level and swap to a smaller turbo that will give a broader power band. I'm willing to bet that a TD04-16T for example will give your engine a lot more power from 3000 rpm meaning you have at least 1000 rpm more to run on.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    As far as I remember the Skogen Racing engine was on E85. So, don't try this at home !!

    I feel your cam spec is a bit fast. Do you have the valve lift at TDC for this engine? I had a very low duration cam installed in my turbo's (or stock cams). I'll check the data again but we had 275 Bhp with a way to small Cosworth turbo in an almost standard Pinto (except from the cam). I did tried some special made Turbo cams. Pipercams used to advertise 2 turbo cams in the catalog so I gave it a try. The result was the same max power and max torque only 1000 RPM later. This was the slowest cam of the 2 advertised and I was reported it was a popular turbo cam in UK. I guess they never tried anything else.

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    I have not checked valve lift at TDC. The cam runs really nice n/a and I think it's quite good for this kind of turbo engine but I may be wrong. It would interesting to try the FR34 I have installed in my other Capri too. But when the head gets whipped off again sometime it will be replaced with a head that has bigger valves so results will be totally comparable.

    Thanks

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    OK so what concerns my turbo, it's made by Comp however I do not know exact model. Turbine's exducer is 58mm and compressor's inducer is at least 55mm (need to measure). I'm using Janspeed cast manifold (sort of log type) combined with Tial 38mm ex. WG, 3" exhaust. My considerations were that with such setup I will have quite late kick in but also lower backpressure which should give me some advantage.

    It looks like my turbo makes quite similar spool to Gustaf's, judging by the plot

    One more question - how would you evaluate max. torque of 250 Nm ? Were are talking about horsepowers, but the torque is also important when we try to define the reliability. How much further I can go with stock pistons ???

    Now I'm not really sure whether I may go to higher boost pressures

    By the way, what temperature thermostats are you using? Would 82 deg C make sense ?

    Click image for larger version Name:	20140223_111325.jpg Views:	142 Size:	112.8 KB ID:	76627Click image for larger version Name:	20140223_111340.jpg Views:	141 Size:	122.9 KB ID:	76628
    Last edited by kliobas; 24-10-2015 at 12:51.

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    Waw, looks like the big turbo's I've been using on my S2000 Honda's. This can only be way to big. Try an Escort 1600 turbo, Cosworth 2WD or Volvo B21 turbo to get 180 Bhp.

    Nice Janspeed manifold you got there.

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    How much further I can go with stock pistons ???
    no further, they WILL break

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    My Holset has Inducer 54 Exducer 78 mm (compressor) and Exducer 49 Inducer 62 mm (turbine).

    Is yours a single entry or dual? TBH I would not expect it to work very well with that kind of manifold if it is dual entry, and I still think you would have the same top end power but a better range with a smaller turbo.

    I made 254 Nm at 0,67 bar on my old setup.

    Unless you can run E85 I agree with Graham, more boost will kill the ring lands sooner or later. If you can keep detonation away it may hold up for say 1 bar but you will be on the edge. OTOH a standard Pinto bottom end is cheap... ;-)

    I think I run a 82 degree thermostat now, don't really remember.

    Gustaf
    Last edited by therealpinto; 24-10-2015 at 17:33.

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    OK so your turbine is much smaller.

    Mine is single entry. I agree that smaller turbo would make sense in terms of usable range, but also I'm certain that with smaller turbo and sooner peak boost I would have greater torque at lower RPMs (and most likely same or lower peak power). How would that affect reliability? Probably in a negative way. IMO the E85 would not make a change here as the torque - pressure in the cylinders would kill the piston.

    Anyway, I'm already convinced by you two not to increase boost Meanwhile I'm planning to build similar engine like Gustaf's, just with as high CR as possible. Will see you much I will be able to achieve.

    One more question for Gustaf - what valve clearances are you running ?

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    E85 would make a MASSIVE change in torque, however it would massively increase loads on pistons so i wouldnt advise its use unless you fit forged pistons or at least YB pistons

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    My experience is that E85 can be used in high boost with compression and cast pistons but you need to be careful, it has a high resistance against detonation but that makes it easy to crank up the boost and blow stuff up... I have no E85 at my local station, that's why I don't use it even though it is popular in Sweden.

    Anyway, here's a screen shot of my ignition map.

    Click image for larger version Name:	ign_table_pinto_turbo.JPG Views:	128 Size:	105.0 KB ID:	76632

    Regards

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    yes E85 is quite detonation resistant, it also needs a LOT more advance. any detonation will wipe out a cast pinto piston @ the boost pressure we are talking about, for me the issue would be that detonation or not you are still making a bigger bang in teh cylinders and thus putting more load (around 20%) on a piston which is already marginal.

    i have played with E85, we remapped a 410bhp turbo motor to run E85 and on the SAME boost power jumped to 485bhp, because we were looking to stay reliable and not stress the motor we didnt up the boost, had we done so without doubt we would of gained even more power

    unfortunatly the goverment over here killed it off with increased taxes before it had a chance to sell in any real quantity so you now cant buy it at the pump here in the uk.
    Last edited by Graham; 25-10-2015 at 20:45.

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    Gustaf, on my peak boost I have very similar advance, slightly lower. What equipment are you using to determine advance, or are you just making dyno runs with different angles?

    Also, what valve clearances are you running? I took my cover off yesterday to check if gaps are okay, nothing special except 2, 3 and 4 cylinder had about 0,15-0,17mm.

    Talking about E85, I still think that torque is most important factor for the piston and it does not matter that much on which fuel. I have now 250Nm instead of stock 160Nm, that's 56% of increase. And perhaps nobody knows how much of increase a piston can take

    By the way, I found acompressor map for my turbo. It looks like currently I'm in the bottom of most efficient island which is good, and also I should be able to hit 300 hp without bigger problems (hopefully ).

    Click image for larger version Name:	Fig12.gif Views:	121 Size:	9.6 KB ID:	76633

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar


    Talking about E85, I still think that torque is most important factor for the piston and it does not matter that much on which fuel
    agreed, but my point was E85 will give you more torque so changing fuel would load the piston more

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    Where these ignition numbers found on a loaded dyno? At many points they don't look familiar to me. Specially in the lower RPM's. Where do you start making boost?

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    I run a crank trigger and waste spark so timing is completely programmable. We did not connect a knock sensor now, just made small changes on the dyno. Pull 1 degree of timing and make a run, if the power decreased we added back and checked, if we gained the same power again we added 1 degree. Just went in small increments.

    I don't have a boost log from the dyno runs but on the street I go above athmospheric at around 2300 rpm, but it takes a while to build boost, at 3000 rpm I still only have 0,2 bar, at 3500 it's 0,4 bar, at 4000 it's 0,8 and then around 4600 there is full boost. On the dyno ISTR that boost came in a bit earlier. Might be that engine sees more load perhaps.

    We spent some time loading the engine at low revs and low throttle openings to see what could be done, and we added quite a lot of timing there. Remember it is a low compression engine...

    Valve clearances are standard, 0,20 mm intake and 0,25 mm exhaust.

    Regards

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    Hi Gustaf,

    It was specially these low RPM numbers I was talking about. To me they look very low. Specially if the boost comes in not earlier as 4600 RPM (I feel way to late) and CR is so low. You don't need know sensor for tuning, only for safety. You need to set the MBT and this will be a lot lower before the engine is going to drop in power and should be a lot before detonation.

    OK, if there was no boost possible anyway you will never see these numbers at all.

    The numbers in the second part of the map, above 3000 RPM start to look more normal to me. But I think round 1 bar boost you can add more advance but do not add before testing. One engine is not the other.

    Please measure lift at TDC. I should come in a lot earlier. It's cam or turbo to big (or a combination of both. I believe we had full boost always round 3000 - 3500 RPM.

    I did tried a big turbo on one of these engine and made a huge different where the turbo pressure started
    Last edited by Dyno; 26-10-2015 at 11:25.

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    It would be very interesting to play with cam timing of course. That's one area where I have not spent enough time.

    Can you give some examples of load cells where you think timing is low? I can't really remember where we worked and not. Your input is valuable, I might try more changes there.

    The turbo probably is "too big" at this power level to be ideal. Sometimes you work with what you've got though - I have smaller ones that could be fitted but it takes time and I have to choose what to spend time on :-) The car is still loads of fun to drive like this and I have other areas to sort further before I swap turbos, I think. But you never know what the winter holds.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    In the first RPM range I see numbers as 1°. OK, it will not make boost anyway. Further in the map, between 2 and 3K number are low again to my feeling, OK again if your can't make boost. On boost they look all lower as what Im' used to in a low CR Pinto. Please note it does not help making the numbers smaller trying to protect your engine. Numbers to low will hurt as much as to high. Exhaust side will be cherry red and valves can let go. So give it a try and increase a little but only steady loaded against a dyno. No run's.

    Try standard cam or the ERSON 134 (Piper BP134, KENT FR30).
    Last edited by Dyno; 26-10-2015 at 13:06.

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    OK, I see. The bluish area is a place in the map where the engine can't go (impossible to have 2 bar of boost at idle). I did not connect the EGT proble (a permanent EGT is on the "to do list") this time either but the base ignition map is made with EGT probing so I'm quite confident that the timing is not dangerously low.

    Cam change will most likely not happen until I swap in a head with larger valves too and that will probably not be now. I also want to run the car with this dyno tune before I tear it apart :-)

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo Capri at 1.8 bar

    OK, I see. In the range the engine is running now it is indeed not at all dangerous mapped. Only, I think there are some cheap horses to be gained.

    Personally I still prefer the steady load test above EGT to get the ignition right but everybody will have different experiences.

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