Help with hill climbing.

[kbk247]

Hi there, just a quick question regarding roll cages if any one can help. I was going to purchase a roll cage next week for me old mk1 escort as she's off for paint and other stuff and I was looking at custom cages website for one. It's either the historic one or the multi point cage as they come with certification I believe. Now from what iv read tho that if you modifie the cage it obviously is not certified. Now my problem is and is probably going to sound stupid but I would still like to roll down my Windows without having to open the door. The historic cage will alow me to do that but I would like to add front supension bars like on the multi point cage...but then with the multi point cage I would have to leave one Half of the x door diaganal bar off so I can roll the window....either way I am changing the cage from the certificat they provide ? Do you need a certified cage to enter hill climbs as this will probably be the only thing I will end up doing in the escort apart from track days and weekend blasts. I have read the Msa book but I'm not gunna lie it hasn't sunk in with me yet. Any help would be appreciated.

[kbk247]

...also I presume a and b pillar tagging is also a change to the certificat ?

[Graham]

technically, if a cage isnt EXACTLY as per its drawing it is long longer certified.

however scrutineers literally only have a couple of mins to look over your car, so unless they see something very wrong you are unlikely to have issues

[kbk247]

Cheers graham ! ...would a and b tags stick out like a saw thumb for it being changed or would they not batter an eye lid if nothing looked majorly wrong ?

[Jim_S]

As already stated if you modify a cage the cert is no longer valid and you then have to make sure that the cage meets the current regs in the "Blue Book" and that also means every time the rules change you need to update your cage.

However I believe if you get a Custom Cages cage fitted by one of there registered fitters that you can request various changes and they send photos etc of the cage and you get a cert for that exact cage.

So I would give them a call and check if what I have said is actually correct

But there are a lot of cars that compete that have no cert and are not up to current standards and they get through scruineering. Most of the owners don't even know their cage is not up to the standard required or that they should have a cert.

Jim

[kbk247]

Cheers Jim ! I'll give them a ring Tuesday ����

[stevieturbo]

Find a local cage/rally prep guy

If you find a good one, they'll be able to build you a cage to whatever spec you want, with whatever adjustments they can whilst remaining within the rules.
And if they are good, it will probably fit better than the generic off the shelf items anyway...and probably be cheaper overall too.

But do make sure and check out their work first.

Good ones are good....but some cages you see in cars are really terrible too.

[Graham]

the problem is rules change, a cage is supposed to be either certified OR comply with latest blue book spec, once certified though a cage is deemed compliant whatever happens to the rules.

you can build a cage which isnt certified and currently complies, but what happens if the rules change? the cage might no longer be legal, its like most of the old safety devices cages, they dont comply with current regs but are ok to use still IF you have a certificate

[stevieturbo]

He's only talking about hillclimbs, not top level FIA stuff.

If the cage is built to spec it's all good.

And dont even start me about F'N MSA rule changes. Bloods boiling about those ! They're costing people a fortune for F All !

[Jim_S]

He's only talking about hillclimbs, not top level FIA stuff.

If the cage is built to spec it's all good.

And dont even start me about F'N MSA rule changes. Bloods boiling about those ! They're costing people a fortune for F All !

It doesn't matter what type of motorsport event you enter if the scruineer decides to have a proper look at your cage and it doesn't meet the current regs and you don't have a cert then you won't get to compete.

I would never buy a caged car that doesn't have a cert, but plenty people do. At a guess 75% of local motorsport cars won't have a cert and won't meet current regs.

I lost my Mk2 cert but managed to prove to SD the cage number and I still had the receipt from 1986

If you don't currently have a cage and are looking to get one, make sure it has a cert.

Jim

[stevieturbo]

And a piece of paper proves very little either

Pretty sure there is nothing in the MSA blue book that insists a cage must have a certificate, but plenty on cage design and how it should be built.

I see plenty of cars 10, 20, 30+ years old and you can be sure none will have pieces of paper, all are competing.

[kbk247]

Cheers everyone, custom cages got back to me, said email them what I would like then they would see what's doable haha so I'll see what happens....if all else fails tho I'll get the historic one and be done with it. Don't really want to take the chance it not being certified as like stated its a lot a money to have done then get told "soz mate your bars are in the wrong place for my liking, your not racing"...which knowing my luck will happen to me. I'm probably talking out my ass and is a question but on reading the Msa book / certification, wasn't a cage that has two bends in it that runs parallel with the door frame to the floor outlawed ?....but wouldn't you be excempt from it being outlawed and allowed to race if it was certified then ?...and if yes then surely a certified cage is only the way forward ?

[Jim_S]

And a piece of paper proves very little either

Pretty sure there is nothing in the MSA blue book that insists a cage must have a certificate, but plenty on cage design and how it should be built.

I see plenty of cars 10, 20, 30+ years old and you can be sure none will have pieces of paper, all are competing.

Yes you are quite correct anyone can build a cage as long as it follows the regs in the blue book but if a scrutineer decides to pick on you and your cage is not up to current regs or does not have a cert then no competing for you.

on reading the Msa book / certification, wasn't a cage that has two bends in it that runs parallel with the door frame to the floor outlawed ?....but wouldn't you be excempt from it being outlawed and allowed to race if it was certified then ?...and if yes then surely a certified cage is only the way forward ?

Yes, there have been occasions where Mk1 & 2 Escorts have had to show there cage paperwork, as I have said before do it right is the only answer. No point in keeping your fingers crossed at every event hoping that you get through.

In saying that I would hate to be the scruitineer that stopped 75%..ish of cars from competing on a race day,

[stevieturbo]

I disagree, it would be up to the scrute to prove the cage does not meet any regs, rather than you getting a scrap piece of paper that tries to contradict and really means nothing.

The scrute would then need to explain what regs it does not meet to justify his decision.

[katana]

I don't want to wade into the rules and regs side but do find it bizarre that a car that has been scrutinised and past at one event can be failed at the next with a different scrute! Surely these guys are tested to apply the regulations as they are written - interpretation or feelings shouldn't come in to it. Agreed, that if the particular rules have changed then the particular item should be re-checked next time out but otherwise its surely deem satisfactory? Why cannot a fixed item like a cage be annually inspected 'outside competition and tagged for a year or be 'lifed' like belts, extinguishers etc. are?

[Jim_S]

Ok, I have competed in various forms of local motorsport on and off for 34 years.

At scrutineering they do not check every item that the blue book says must be in place. They give it a check for various safety items and sometimes have a theme for the event, maybe after a safety bulletin etc.

It would take two minutes to take the blue book and check that a cage does or does not meet current regs or ask for the cert or homologation papers for the cage. Then make a decision to let you compete or not.

And it doesn't matter if it passed the week before or not it is the desision on the day that counts.

I have competed loads of times in a car that was quite safe but should not have fully passed scrutineering due to some minor issues.

Jim

[stevieturbo]

I don't want to wade into the rules and regs side but do find it bizarre that a car that has been scrutinised and past at one event can be failed at the next with a different scrute! Surely these guys are tested to apply the regulations as they are written - interpretation or feelings shouldn't come in to it. Agreed, that if the particular rules have changed then the particular item should be re-checked next time out but otherwise its surely deem satisfactory? Why cannot a fixed item like a cage be annually inspected 'outside competition and tagged for a year or be 'lifed' like belts, extinguishers etc. are?

It's little different than an MOT...except the rules are far more difficult for human beings to interpret.

And anything where people are involved....things can either get mistaken, overlooked, whatever. It may not be same scrutes at every event, and indeed aspects of the car may have changed for every event

Cages dont need tagged, and TBH I dont see how a tag would carry any weight either, as the cage could have been altered or changed after any tagging....making it as pointless as an MOT

Hence such tags are not needed and the cage just needs to be made to spec.

[Jim_S]

It's little different than an MOT...except the rules are far more difficult for human beings to interpret.

And anything where people are involved....things can either get mistaken, overlooked, whatever. It may not be same scrutes at every event, and indeed aspects of the car may have changed for every event

Cages dont need tagged, and TBH I dont see how a tag would carry any weight either, as the cage could have been altered or changed after any tagging....making it as pointless as an MOT

Hence such tags are not needed and the cage just needs to be made to spec.

Yes you are quite right...cages do need to be made to spec and for 2016 the spec is in the MSA Blue Book, next year if the spec changes you should , but may get away with it , modify your cage to meet the new spec if they have changed anything. But if the cage you have had built in 2016 comes with a certificate then you won't have to modify your cage.

I can certainly see where you are coming from but the original question was asked and properly answered by Graham and myself and that is really it.

Jim

[davemk1]

Electric Windows!

[Graham]

but do find it bizarre that a car that has been scrutinised and past at one event can be failed at the next with a different scrute! Surely these guys are tested to apply the regulations as they are written

ok there are a few things the bare in mind here,

first off it usually takes a minimum of two years of training for someone to pass out as a qualified scruit, and there is considerable paperwork and modules to be signed off first, so yes they do know a LOT of rules and regulations.

secondly they have a realitvily short space of time to (6mins) get through a lot of cars, you cannot check everything in that time.

another aspect is they are human beings! some will pick up on certain items that others dont, just like MOT testers, some are prone to failing things others wouldnt, just like motorsport theres only one set of rules. My background means i am more likely to pick up on a mechanical aspect than a technicality of a year date stamp. i was part of the scrutineering team at brands over the weekend, i picked up numerous items which didnt comply, a lot of cars had very minor iregularities which i let past, why? because the scruts are not there to actually stop competitors competing the main aim is to ensures the car is fundamentally safe. so some cars went through with advise to attend to certain items for the future, obviously if i see the same car in future with the same defect they will not get a ticket from me.

essentually, if it looks safe and the major items are all ok you wil probably be ok.

something competitors often get mixed up on is eligability and safety scrutineering, every car is saftey scrutineered every event, during safety the scruts are not looking at whether the car complies with the championship technical regulations, saturday was a perfect example for me, the queue i was working through in the morning compised of four different championships with 4 different sets of rules and two totally different construction styles, a couple of hours later was looking at pickup trucks and legends. of the mornings cars i knew quite a few of them and whether they were also eligability compliant, the rest i had no idea in that department.

[brafferton]

You could use one of our polycarb window kits. Just fix a handle at the top and push up or down.
Stuart.
Airedale race components.
0113 2509852

[brafferton]

You could use one of our polycarb window kits. Just fix a handle at the top and push up or down.
Stuart.
Airedale race components.
0113 2509852

[Graham]

I disagree, it would be up to the scrute to prove the cage does not meet any regs, rather than you getting a scrap piece of paper that tries to contradict and really means nothing.

The scrute would then need to explain what regs it does not meet to justify his decision.

trust me i am a scrut, and its not my job to prove your car doesnt comply its upto you to prove it does if it comes to it.

that said, if you cage looks safe you are highly unlikely to have issues