Brake upgrade on a mk2 Ghia

[Mk2Neil]

Hi all,

Currently thinking of upgrading M16 calipers on a mk2 Escort Ghia with standard non RS legs. My thoughts are to fit Capri 2.8i vented front discs and spaced M16 calipers then use Mintex or similar pads for road use. Just want to try and get a bit better braking without changing legs or going 4 pot etc. Would the spaced setup work on standard Escort legs? Running 7x13 superlite alloys as well so hoping that it would clear them and also the steel spare Ghia wheel i have in the boot. Anyone done this conversion and had any issues?

[Graham]

changing to vented discs will not give you any more braking power than you have now, the benefit of vented discs is they are more fade resitant

[Mk2Neil]

Thanks Graham,

Maybe just upgrading the pads may be the way to go. I did look at the 4 pot Wilwood kits, but they only seem compatible with RS / Capri legs. Not sure if the hub is spaced differently compared to the poverty spec Escorts.

[Miniliteman]

I once had 4 pot Wilwood's on non-RS Mk2 legs. So they could fit can't remember if I had to modify something.

[Mk2Neil]

Must admit, I have now been looking at the wilwood 4 pot m16 replacement calipers. I'm sure there are ways to fit them to standard struts. Big Hanmer, grinder etc

[Mk2Neil]

Must admit, I'm interested in the Wilwood 4 pot M16 replacement calipers which you can get for solid or vented discs. Must be a way to fit them on standard legs. Big hammer, grinder etc!!

[alladdin]

fit a remote servo on front brakes only.

[katana]

fit a remote servo on front brakes only.

Won't improve the brakes - just makes the pedal easier to push! If you want better brakes - it needs either bigger discs, more pistons / bigger pistons with corresponding bigger pad area or change of friction material. The latter is the hardest as a grippier material will likely be softer so wear faster and fade quicker but better when cold whilst higher 'performance' pads can exhibit the reverse / opposite of these traits to a greater / lesser degree!

[alladdin]

Won't improve the brakes - just makes the pedal easier to push! If you want better brakes - it needs either bigger discs, more pistons / bigger pistons with corresponding bigger pad area or change of friction material. The latter is the hardest as a grippier material will likely be softer so wear faster and fade quicker but better when cold whilst higher 'performance' pads can exhibit the reverse / opposite of these traits to a greater / lesser degree!

Let’s not go into hydraulic theory as pointless.
A single remote servo on front works wonders. Best brakes I ever had on an escort ( road rally in 80s). In short superb and would lock brackes on front. Not vented either as skint.
Escort brakes are solid but shi***t
So press harder ( servo ) they work. First hand experience.

[Mk2Neil]

Thanks chaps.

The brake system still has the servo tower and the 9" drums on the rear. As its a 'fast' road car and wont see any track days or rallying, i think i might go down the old skool route of Capri 2.8 vented discs, space the M16 calipers and look for some Mintex or Green stuff pads. Then see if the JBW Superlites do not hit them!

[Miniliteman]

Let’s not go into hydraulic theory as pointless.
A single remote servo on front works wonders. Best brakes I ever had on an escort ( road rally in 80s). In short superb and would lock brackes on front. Not vented either as skint.
Escort brakes are solid but shi***t
So press harder ( servo ) they work. First hand experience.

You say "don't go into hydraulic theory" but pushing harder (with servo) is just that. Pushing harder means higher hydraulic pressure. Also, locking front brakes means the braking force is too high for the tyres fitted. Locking front tyres means you are going to hit the fence at the T-junction as steering is a no-go!

[Mk2Neil]

Could someone confirm if the Capri 2.8 vented discs will fit and work on standard Escort front hubs / struts? Just looked on Burton website and even front solid RS discs are listed separate to standard Escorts even though they are both shown as 245x12.7 in size. I'd like to try vented 2.8 discs, but if they wont work then ill get some new standard Escort solid discs and upgrade the pads. Very confusing!

[alladdin]

You say "don't go into hydraulic theory" but pushing harder (with servo) is just that. Pushing harder means higher hydraulic pressure. Also, locking front brakes means the braking force is too high for the tyres fitted. Locking front tyres means you are going to hit the fence at the T-junction as steering is a no-go!

Like I said. No need to explain theory as they work.
And yes if you lock up front you slide into hedge. If you got no brakes your on hedge but if you can drive them hopefully you won’t lock brakes as you have a brake modulation device called your foot
And while some servo towers work most are useless by now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FrankC]

I had mintex pads on car wheel I bought it. Squealed like a biatch so replaced with ferodo, problem solved.
A mate also has mintex with his AP set up and they also squeal…

[Miniliteman]

I had mintex pads on car wheel I bought it. Squealed like a biatch so replaced with ferodo, problem solved.
A mate also has mintex with his AP set up and they also squeal…

Brake squeal is not related to brand of the brake pads. High metal content in the pads or not optimal break-in procedure can cause squeal.

[FrankC]

Brake squeal is not related to brand of the brake pads. High metal content in the pads or not optimal break-in procedure can cause squeal.

So are you just here to criticise peoples posts ?
I gave my experience with a make of pads he’s considering nothing more. If you search mintex , especially people who have fitted 1144 pads to road cars there’s many complaints about the pads squealing.
Yes there is such a thing as bedding pads in and you can also bed tyres in but most folk with road cars simply fit them and drive. I fitted the ferodo ds2500 with no bedding in and they are perfectly fine…

[Miniliteman]

So are you just here to criticise peoples posts ?
I gave my experience with a make of pads he’s considering nothing more. If you search mintex , especially people who have fitted 1144 pads to road cars there’s many complaints about the pads squealing.
Yes there is such a thing as bedding pads in and you can also bed tyres in but most folk with road cars simply fit them and drive. I fitted the ferodo ds2500 with no bedding in and they are perfectly fine…

Like you I gave my experience about the subject.

[alladdin]

we used to use ferodo ds11 which did need bedding in and then getting red hot to work correctly but i think the materials of pads have changed over the years so you should follow whatever manufacturer recomends.

[Graham]

If you search mintex , especially people who have fitted 1144 pads to road cars there’s many complaints about the pads squealing.
Yes there is such a thing as bedding pads in and you can also bed tyres in but most folk with road cars simply fit them and drive. I fitted the ferodo ds2500 with no bedding in and they are perfectly fine…

Interesting, although M1144 and such like are not supposed to be an everyday road pads. Different setups will do different things on the same pads. My experience is DS2500, DS3000 squeal insane amounts, but on a genuine race car who cares?

[rallyrob]

I had M1144 on my car years ago and they never squealed.

But every car I ever heard with Ds2500, Ds 3000 squealed like mad.

[Zakspak]

Could someone confirm if the Capri 2.8 vented discs will fit and work on standard Escort front hubs / struts? Just looked on Burton website and even front solid RS discs are listed separate to standard Escorts even though they are both shown as 245x12.7 in size. I'd like to try vented 2.8 discs, but if they wont work then ill get some new standard Escort solid discs and upgrade the pads. Very confusing!

Hi Neil,
I think Burton list them separately because not every escort is an RS product. I wouldn’t want to say the 2.8 discs will fit but ……
I’ve got M16 calipers with a spacing kit and running vented discs with I believe mintex pads. I did my own research on the pads and found that the opinion of people who are far more involved than me is that for a road car this would be totally sufficient, this included manufacturers information and advice. You can over brake the car, and some of those race compound pads need to be heated to work so on a road they just aren’t suitable. I’m also using Dot4 fluid. I considered Dot5 but again research said it’s not suitable for my set up (can’t remember why now)
Pic attached of my front legs/brakes
If you go vented you’ll loose the disc dust plates.
Burtons are very good with advice on the phone. My discs came from another company and were listed as a Mk1/2 escort upgrade
I can have a measure up for you if you want. They’re probably the same as 2.8 discs

These are Mk2 RS2000 legs, the difference from a standard leg is the steering arm is bolt on not cast so that’s an easy way to check what you have.

[Mk2Neil]

Thanks Zakspak,My steering arms are the cast poverty spec type. However! I have just bought some GAZ coilovers and also the RS steering arms / Track rod ends and standard width RS spec alloy front hubs as well, so i should be fitting these soon. Hoping the calipers will clear the rear of the front hubs, but maybe some tickling with the grinder may be required. This should allow me to then see how much room i have and space the M16s, use some RS vented discs and decent pads. Neil

[Zakspak]

Post some pics up when you’re done. Always nice to see different set ups.
There shouldn’t be a clearance issue because the vented disc moves the hubs out equally to the widening of the M16s with the spacer kit. It’s clear when you see it. I’ve currently got some standard RS 4 spoke alloys on so I can move the car around in and out of the garage, no issues.
I’ve got a standard steel wheel to use as a spare “trim wheel” because I have 8”F & 9”R rims for when it’s finished, I’ll stick it on to double check and let you know.

[alladdin]

Thanks Zakspak,My steering arms are the cast poverty spec type. However! I have just bought some GAZ coilovers and also the RS steering arms / Track rod ends and standard width RS spec alloy front hubs as well, so i should be fitting these soon. Hoping the calipers will clear the rear of the front hubs, but maybe some tickling with the grinder may be required. This should allow me to then see how much room i have and space the M16s, use some RS vented discs and decent pads. Neil

you can sometimes get contact on hub on casting at points where studs are. some hubs are chamfered here to allow clearance but you can end up with pair that are not. grinder can sort it

[Mk2Neil]

you can sometimes get contact on hub on casting at points where studs are. some hubs are chamfered here to allow clearance but you can end up with pair that are not. grinder can sort it

I mocked up one leg today and put my alloy hub on the stub axle and bolted the standard m16 caliper on. Looks like there is room there, but would definitely hit the rear of the hub on the caliper if I spaced the M16s out to fit vented discs. May just upgrade the pads with the solid discs for now and just get the coilovers all fitted first. I think the only other option would be to fit the alloy hubs that are 10mm offset, or capri steel hubs that have a thinner flange. Fun and games!

[alladdin]

you do know that when you fit the spaced calipers you also fit 2 thick washers to offset them back away from the hub ?

[Mk2Neil]

you do know that when you fit the spaced calipers you also fit 2 thick washers to offset them back away from the hub ?

I do yes, would really need to give it a try when its all together with the coilovers and then try spacing a caliper and bolt it on the strut with the washers to see how close it is. My only concern was that even though my alloy hubs are standard track, the rear flange is quite thick whereas the standard Capri/RS steel hub flange is a lot thinner. Its all trial and error!



Cheers,

Neil