That was the 2nd race Graham,in race one I was in front for nearly 3 lapsOriginally Posted by graham bahr
That was the 2nd race Graham,in race one I was in front for nearly 3 laps
yes your right nick, i just checked that lap charts,
thinking about it im sure you did the round the ouside line in both races, but it was race two it didnt really benifit you
I'd started on the inside for race 2
How did cadwell go Graham??
Sierra cosworth turbo race car
QMN saloon car championship
RETRO Motorsport
made me sick literally!!!!!!!!!!!!
Doesn't sound too good Graham?
prior to cadwell, i didnt do much pre event prep,
i dialed an extra 3/4 degree camber into the N/S/F and reset the toe, and went up 50lb on the rear springs, so theres now 450lb in the back, they are also an inch shorter, but for no other reason than short springs weigh less than long ones! resetting the spring platforms to suit the shorter springs i went to click a bit more stiffeness into the dampers, only to find i i was only two clicks off full stiff, no big deal but it does show i need to get the rear dampers re valved, no suprise really when you take into account they were speced for 250lb springs not the 400odd i've been running.
cadwell park is an awesome circuit, its up and down like a roller coaster, very tight in most places increadbly narrow with very little runoff, its so narrow in fact that if you drive down the middle of the track no one can get past! you would defiantaly have to go there several times or spend at least whole day if not more testing to master it
Last edited by Graham; 11-04-2010 at 15:03.
practise,
ok off i went with no more idea where the circuit went than what the blue book picture looked like, it has a section called the mountain, and it really does appear to rise vertically you reach it via a short straight and sharp left turn, which almost immediatly makes a tight 90 right, you go over a crest, caterhams will get airbourn, my car just went light at the rear and the revs would rise a bit as the rear slicks struggled for grip, and to put that into perspective my slicks are 245 wide! after that theres a tiny straight which leads you into a woodlands section, its nearly a chicane, but isnt quite, its a 3rd gear right left right left right, litterally yards apart which turns into 120 degree tight right which is , sharply down hil, this sections a killer my stomach didnt like so many violent direction changes, it literally made me feel ill, after that section you went down hill round a long curve, onto the start/finish straight, which then goes steeply uphill to the left, through a righthander which seems to go on forever, down a dip and then uphill again, over a blind creast, through another long righhander, into the gooseneck, another sharp left/right which is obscured by a marshalls post, the gooseneck goes very steeply down hill, steeply enough to make my stomach lurch again, into a nother tight left which leads you via a short straight back to the mountain,
i did about 4 laps of the 2.1 mile circuit, by which time i felt so ill i had to pull into the pits i gave it 5 mins and got back in the car, luckilly we had a long 25 min qualifying session, so i set off again, two laps later i couldnt contain things was actually sick mid corner and pulled off for good,
i did think maybe the sickness was due to early start and emptyish stomach etc, but then several marshalls told me its not unknown for the circuit to do that to some drivers.
with that and not knowing where i was going i expected to of qualified last but i haddnt, i had a silhoutte or two behind me and a bunch of TVR's, my class competitors, both caterhams were a couple of cars ahead grid wise but in terms of lap time way way ahead like 7 and 12 seconds ahead, but they did have the advantages of doing a test day the day before as well as not being sick.
race one,
made my usual start neither gaining or loosing any spots, i tried to hang onto my nearest class competitor, john chasey in his caterham, whilst fending off silhiloutte, i got into something of a rhythm but wasnt close enough to johns caterham to get a tow round so i could learn from his lines and braking points and he gradually pulled away, i have to say my car was behaving perfectly i was just my lack of confindence in where i was going that was hampering my lap times, this made worse by the fact that the circuit has very little run off so every corner you can see exactly where you will hit something solid if you go off, that said after a few laps i was in clear air all on my own, as i tired a bit harder into some of the corners a legacy of the new bigger brake calipers seemed to reoccur in that although the car stops better on the new calipers under very hard braking theres now too much bias to the rear and the backends rather loose, not loose enough to turn it round but loose enough to make things a bit scary, i dunno how many laps i did before sick feelings re occured, but they came back with vengence, being in clear air i backed off the pace and decide just to bring it home, well for a couple of laps until my mirrors were full of red TVR which was one that i had peeked at in the paddock so i knew it had a good dose of grunt as it was powered by a triple webered essex V6, not wanting to loose a place i speeded up again, pushing on up the mountain for the second to last time i though i might just make it to the end, passing the last lap board should of been a relief but it seemed to only increase the gag reflex, up the mountain and through the complex for that last time i actually had my left hand in my mouth and was driving one handed, as we hit the start straight for the last time i couldnt keep things in any more and literallymy way over the finish.
back in the paddock my son stephen did a grand job of trying to clean things up, seat belst helmet overalls, balaclava etc etc,
the results sheets came round i cant remember where i finished and have lost the sheet, but i'd lopped best part of 7 seconds on my practise time, one of the other competitors gave me some anti sickness pills and i drunk some water, although it was doubtfull the pills would have enough time work before race two.
race two
normallish start except me pulling off in 3rd on the green flag lap! amazingly the car did albe it a bit slowly, this time i stuck closer to john chaseys caterham, a mistake on my part allowed teh red TVR through, determined not to allow it to stay ahead i pushed on hard, a bit too hard and got very out of shape going up the mounting, i caught it but the engine had died, i still had dash lights and it cranked, thinking it was dead i rolled back/was pushed by the marshalls onto the grass by the pit entrance and unbuckled my belt to get out when i spotted somehow i'd turned the ecu off, i dunno how as the switch is almost behind me and difficult to reach intensionally, flicking the switch back on and hitting the start button she fired up and a buckled up, that whole sequence felt like it took 5 mins but it was only about 90 seconds as i rejoined the track just behind (although a lap down) john and infront of the red tvr, i knew i was now last but what the hell i was there to race and race i was going to, my guts had other ideas through and a lap later i reached big time and yes you guess it more
so to sum up a great track if you can stand going round and round on roller coasters ( richard brent who had come up to do the tin top race had the same problems as me just not quite such drastic consiquences) we didnt take any tire temps, simply because i was either ill or its such a long way from the finish back to the paddock its pointless, but the changes i've made to the car bode well for the next meeting at brands which is only a week away
Last edited by Graham; 11-04-2010 at 16:48.
it was nice to meet jon betts at cadwell,
he took some nice pics, there on his facebook http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...6672224&page=5
gary has linked some of them too mine http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...?id=1183878718
Ah jeez, that's not nice Graham, I expect the motion sickness pills will probably work better if you take them with plenty of time. As I'm sure you know, it's the reason a lot of rally drivers/co drivers get sick because of the constant direction changes etc. You'll know for next time!!
Graham I feelI haven't got a facebook account but will try and look at the pics through one of my daughters accounts....................Hope they don't show any puke
Sounds like an interesting day GrahamAt least the car is fit and well for Brands next week, just make sure you dry clean your suit and let some air get to the car before I go near it
Sierra cosworth turbo race car
QMN saloon car championship
RETRO Motorsport
Air sickness tablets will sort you out Graham . Most rally navigators have had to use them , one good brand is Quells , over the counter in the chemist . My navi was in an awful way after our first road rally , taking Quells sorted him ever after .
prior to brands i did very little prep to the car, in fact all i did was to tweek the length of the pushrod for the front brake master cylinder, lengthening it a bit, which should give a bit more front bias.
once again numbers were a bit short in my class, dunno why a class which can have a 16v 2.0 should be bursting at the seams with cars, anyway practise went without any incident or drama, i qualified with a 55.3 second lap, which was ok but not great,to be honest i wasnt being brave enough on the brakes into paddock, but having been playing with the pedal box i wasnt going to really push them and most laps i never got a really clean lap in anyway, classwise this qualified me 2nd in class behind martin johnstones cive type R which was actually being driven by greg rose, a very quick man in any car, and ahead of lee mcnair's integra type r,
race 1, the rolling start was a fairly slow one, the pace being set by rod birley who was on pole as usual, i suspect the slow, still 3rd gear though! was deliberate on rods behalf, knowing that it would catch the skylines off boost, for me the start speed was spot on, just on cam in 3rd leaving me plenty of gear left, so i was right in the thick of it when we hit the first corner paddock hill bend, which dissappeared in a cloud of cement dust as there was a great trail of oil round it right on the racing line, keeping my foot in and my nerve i'd made several places up, notably i was ahead of both bill richards and richard brent, and ahead of a 2.7 4wd Audi, despite the car still showing a lack of traction out of graham hill bend and clearways i held my position, even tucked in right behind me taking advantage of the big hole my car leaves in the air richard couldnt do anything about be down the straight, lap 3 he tucked in really tight and pulled out just as we hit the braking zone, i could of probably forced the issue and kept my place but i was still rather weiry of the oil slick on circuit, i didnt want to risk a trip into the kitty litter especially as richard and i arnt in the same class anyway. i kept bill behind me for a bit longer, but his KAD engined 500kg mini is really hard for me to live with and he slipped through, well for a few laps anyway when it developed a missfire and i retook the place, too my suprise i was still holding off the 4wd audi with relative ease, near the end of the race his tyres appeared to wake up he too passed me, and thats about it i had started 18th and finished 12th, best lap of 54.6, still 2nd in class.
race two,
this was set up to be class wise a tight one for me, having lee mcnair in his honda just behind me and greg rose in the other honda just in front, i know i should be able to get into the 53's but getting to a low 53 as required to catch greg was going to be hard, and i know that lees honda could match my lap times, the start was pretty static position wise and i had lee on my tail,
a few laps in pushed a bit hard into clearways and went a little wide, giving lee a gap up the inside, that wasnt a great issue as such but struggling for traction robbed me of vital acceration and alowed lee right alongside me, as our cars have identical straightline speed it gave lee the inside line into paddock and the place, im sure i would of been able to catch him and had a good chance to retake the position but an almighty shunt redflagged the race and that was it race over after only 7 laps, my best lap time had improved to a 54.4 with more to come, after the purpertrator of the shunt was excluded from the results i finished 9th overal, which ordinarilly id be delighted with, but due to the incident it was nothing to smile about.
theres some on board footage from lees honda
http://www.youtube.com/user/leemig
http://www.youtube.com/user/leemig
So.... we've got to keep our eyes out for some cheap GRP wings, and doors then. As your still giving weight away to the others..
(allthough i still think a thunderloon sierra kit could be used and loose some weight from the rear 1/4's and front wings to start with.. speak to Greg, hes got some S/H ones)
Congrats on the placings though
Well done on the results Graham ,i have been following the thread on 10tenths cant believe the state of Bills mini and the honda they were both lucky to walk away with relativly (sp) minor injuries considering the damage ,was the the driver who caused the problem a novice ,it has made me think about maybe entering at a lower level to gain a bit more experience ,i wouldn,t want to be responsible for a crash like that .
ironically about the only one im not giving weight away too is lee, but his honda has the same power,that said its much better areowise and the car is a pukka well sorted machineSo.... we've got to keep our eyes out for some cheap GRP wings, and doors then. As your still giving weight away to the others..
no he wasnt a novic, andpower had nothing to do with the accident he had been bumping his way through the field, i've seen incar footage from another car which clearly showed him going between gregs honda and the edge of the track where there simply wasnt room, that span greg out who hit the pitwall and bounced back onto the track, collecting chris hayes's seat and bill collected chris, lee was first uninvolved driver on scene and i was right behind him thinking "christ which way do i go" as gregs honda was still spinning across the track.was the the driver who caused the problem a novice ,
i know the driver respocible was excluded and now has points on his licence and his driving will be a matter for discussion at the next barc se comittee meeting
i dont see why you should, i would think differently if you were to come out in a 800bhp skyline or similar as a novice,it has made me think about maybe entering at a lower level to gain a bit more experience
conclusions, the cars actually working well, what was once a difficult lap time is now easy to achive, where its weakest at the moment is traction out of clearways and but less so graham hill, one answer would be more lock in the diff, but to my mind thats the wrong way to do things i want both rear wheels putting the power down not 1 or 1.5,
weight transferr/body roll can cause traction issues which you can improve by making the front stiffer, i dont want to stiffen the front anymore because it turns in and rides the kerbs well, what i think is happening is that although body roll is minimal its just enough to take the load off the inside rear spring, so that plan is to get Gaz to revalve the rear shocks to better suit the rear 450lb springs (they were origonally valved for 250s) and add some helper springs which will put some preload into the rear end so there is always some spring pressure on the trailing arms
i too have been watching this thread, and this race was the first time i have seen the DMN and you sure dont dissapoint, first the leader in the escort cos pulls over and bursts into flames in the pits, then 2 laps later that accident
seriously though, nice work, hope to watch a few more dmn events this year
I always thought rallying was a much more dangerous form of motorsport but at least there each driver is responsible for his own actions but on the track you need to trust that all the other driver are doing the right thing. Frightening accident, glad no one got badly hurt.
Before it sounds like this is normal... I must use Grahams thread to point out that the DMN has a brillient record of safe driving, and some of the closest dices seen on british circuits, with a mix of cars rarely seen anywhere else , the front two rows can have over 2500bhp, the last two, can struggle to share 500bhp.
There have been a few accidents, but these have been 'handshakes in the pits' afterwards, and a few have fallen off on their own. but, that said, you are hard pushed to find closer racing, and close, exciting racing means a little rub, two escorts at Lydden were touching nearly every lap, in the pits, the pair patted each other on the back, and asked for each others paint back, before going up to the office for a telling off.
The championship is organised well, and policed well.. its fair, close, and exciting.
In my mind, the DMN is one of the best around, backed up by being in the top 5 of the Motoring News poll year after year .
Back to you Graham
are you trying to put weight into the car gary?
Cars, because you can't get enough kicks out of walking fast.
i've just realised that as a result of 4 consistant finishes i now lead my class
Well done mate, thats what its all about. As the cars are getting quicker and quicker it very much pays to have a solid reliable car that can score points every race weekend. A win followed by a failure isn't much good but consistant top 3 results and every chance of getting class wins will pay dividends at the end of the year.
The car looks more and more planted on track, as Lee's incar shows but I would love to get the car a lot lower. I think this will have to wait till the winter but with the right arches and some poking and proding of the geometry the whole thing can come down a couple of inches with a bit of luck..
Gary I have my eye on those t'loon arches keep your hands off
Last edited by david_white; 21-04-2010 at 20:42.
Sierra cosworth turbo race car
QMN saloon car championship
RETRO Motorsport
Gary, perfect description of the DMN. We dont want people thinking it is banger racing, but even as I watched that 2nd race from the sidelines there was way too much nudging and biting of peoples bumpers going on and I think the horrible result of this race will be a wake up call for everyone. We are all out there to enjoy it and it is very expensive at the best of times without having people who don't even mind writing off another car to gain a place. I was very lucky as I got turned round like Greg did last season but I was speared into the pit entry. A couple of metres later and I would have hit the pit wall and almost certainly been collected. Rant over.
On a positive note it looks like all involved are aiming to get out again as soon as possible and in the mean time we all wish Bill a speedy recovery, the man is a Legend
Also good luck to Greg, he must ache like hell and now they are talking about rebuilding what was left of the civic
Sierra cosworth turbo race car
QMN saloon car championship
RETRO Motorsport
doubt it, at the front theres barely 1.5 inches between the underside of the innerwing and tyrewhole thing can come down a couple of inches with a bit of luck..
time to move the inner wings up ...
have you made some interpretation of wording to allow this?time to move the inner wings up ...
Cars, because you can't get enough kicks out of walking fast.
If it says the origional inner wings must be retained in the car just keep them in the boot
Sierra cosworth turbo race car
QMN saloon car championship
RETRO Motorsport
inner wings appart its not really feasable to lower the front suspension any more without radically modifying or fabricating a new x member and lower arms, the only sensable way to really lower the car is drop the wheels down to 16 inch, but thats expensive with the cost of new wheels and tyres which incidentallycost £50 a corner more, not to mention it will screw up the gearing
The rules say that the inner wheel tubs can only be modified to fit dampers... so fit long dampers and raise the tubs up to allow this ... dont bang your head Graham, i'm on joking
But..... we can go lower ...
16s would probably be ideal for the car but as you say the 18s are better tyres and cheaper, plus btcc cars will soon run on that size 18" tyres which should be a good thing in terms of developement and possibly costs coming down a bit.
Sierra cosworth turbo race car
QMN saloon car championship
RETRO Motorsport
how'd you figure btcc on 18's brings the cost down?
besides, touring car rubber would be somewhat too hard would it not?
call it nhy on 300 hp and weighing roughly 1100kg, though i guess if you work the power:weight ratio it could work out...
okay, well maths is done, father, you should be going alot faster, using the cars figures and weight against the touring cars, you have an identical power:weight ratio.
pedal faster
alright, maths is out, 270bhp is what they're meant to be on and at 1100 kg which is under the minimum weight slightly means btcc have a power:weight of 245hp
PEDAL FASTERRRR!!!
Last edited by stephen bahr; 27-04-2010 at 11:38.
Cars, because you can't get enough kicks out of walking fast.
ok to answer some of that my son,
if touring cars all switch to 18inch rubber than greater supply/demand may bring cost down,
i wouldnt xpect touring car tyres to be A harder compound as they only do one race on a set,
touring car lap times well that mainly about two things, drivers that are one hell of a lot better than me and suspension set ups that are in a different league to mine, touring cars are all about corner speed,
yes i might have the same power to weight ratio, so IF i had ideal gearing and a six speed sequential gearbox i might be able to match one in acceration terms
but down the straights they would still pull away because to pull a decent top speed you need power, having a good power to weight ratio doesnt help much with regards to top speed
The top atheletes, the top snooker players, the top drivers ... what do they all have in common?
They all do it 24/7 almost, when they are not training they are thinking, and sleeping is part of the training, they are at the pinnacle of fitness, a finely tuned machine ..
That is why they go so much faster.
Put a touring car driver in a cab, and send him round brands, he would probably beat the cabbie, but put him in London and tell him to get from the east to west.. my money is on teh cabbie, he does it everyday.
The answer to matching a current BTCC drivers times is to be a current BTCC in a current car.
That said ... pedal faster Graham
Makes sense Gary, but you may as well have just said "Graham, you suck"The top atheletes, the top snooker players, the top drivers ... what do they all have in common?
They all do it 24/7 almost, when they are not training they are thinking, and sleeping is part of the training, they are at the pinnacle of fitness, a finely tuned machine ..
That is why they go so much faster.
Put a touring car driver in a cab, and send him round brands, he would probably beat the cabbie, but put him in London and tell him to get from the east to west.. my money is on teh cabbie, he does it everyday.
The answer to matching a current BTCC drivers times is to be a current BTCC in a current car.
That said ... pedal faster Graham
To put this in perspective my car has "just" 194bhp per tonne (with driver) and generally I lap within a second of Grahams' times around Brands hatch indy circuit.call it nhy on 300 hp and weighing roughly 1100kg, though i guess if you work the power:weight ratio it could work out...
okay, well maths is done, father, you should be going alot faster, using the cars figures and weight against the touring cars, you have an identical power:weight ratio.
pedal faster
alright, maths is out, 270bhp is what they're meant to be on and at 1100 kg which is under the minimum weight slightly means btcc have a power:weight of 245hp
PEDAL FASTERRRR!!!
with me on board i've only got 246 per tonne to play with
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