Vented capri Disk and M16 Caliper HELP!

[MK1 CAS]

Just wanted to know in many peoples opinion, for a road car (my car, these are the plans i have for my MK1). It has a 2 Litre, heavy duty springs all round, it is going to have Poly bushes all round as well, but i am stuck at the choice of brake up grade or stay with the standard MK2 2litre set up.

I wanted to use a capri disk, space the M16 Caliper and put 9" Drums on the rear of my MK1, with the inclusion of braided brake lines.

Now i have been told that is over kill for a road car and the standard 2Litre front end and my 8" MK1 Drums will more than enough for a fast road car.

I am getting mixed messages, what are peoples ideas and general concensus about vented disk with M16 caliper, 9" drums and braided lines. Will there be a greater increase in braking power and a noticible difference?

HELP! as i want to purchase parts and get this installed with in a month.

Thanks

[dodgydoughnut]

using the vented disks will not increase power of the brakes. it just lets them cool down quicker.

[Dave]

what are peoples ideas and general concensus about vented disk with M16 caliper, 9" drums and braided lines. Will there be a greater increase in braking power and a noticible difference?

They do only cool better, but, if you put new calipers and discs as you say along with braided hoses and bigger rear drums, then yes, you will notice an improvement.
The setup you are considering is fine

[Graham]

the setup your suggesting cas is fine, infact its the same as on my RS, as the others have said, the vented discs wont improve stopping, but will make the brakes more fade resistant which is a good thing, if you remove the disc back plates while your at it that will also help and will keep your wheels cleaner

[Retromotorsport]

Allthough i would change the front and leave the back... as the bigger drums may be too good if your only driving with 2 people and nothing heavy in the boot/trunk.

If you find you need more rear brake after trying then fit the bigger drums, may save some money by trying them as they are first

[MK1 CAS]

I don't understand what you mean by saying the bigger drums may be too good?

Retro you seem to be the guy that knows all there is about escorts, so if i was cruising at 140KM/h (approx 80miles/h)

and i need to brake all of a sudden to a sudden stop, or i need to wipe a major amount of speed of, will the rears be up to it?

i have been told to put EBC green stuff pads on the front, and Kevlar shoes on the rear (if i am to keep the 8" drums).

will this suffice?

[Graham]

oh dear ere we go again

when you brake weight transfer puts more weight on the front of the car, this is a good thing as it increases the grip the front tyres have as you can only brake as hard as the amount of tyre grip avaiable, the flip side is that it takes weight away from the rear end thus decreasing rear tyre grip thus limiting potiental rear brake stopping power.

the last thing you want if you do an emergency stop at high speed is loads of rear brake effort when the rear tyres have least grip, the effect can be the same as yanking the handbrake on, great if your rallying round tight hairpins, downright dangerous on the road

look at racing motorcyles they are doing all there stopping with the rear wheel in the air! which both demonstrates the weight transfer thing and that infact you dont need rear brakes at all!


if you uprate the front brakes it might be nec to reduce rear brake effort, it certainly doesn't follow that you must match an uprated front brake with an equilly uprated rear

[Retromotorsport]

Graham has covered it above.

Do the front brakes and then test on a private road, and build speed slowly.

You will then find out what the brakes are doing.. the fronts should always lock up before the rears. understeer is safer than over steer.

If you have too much rear brake and have to apply the brakes mid corner the car will swap ends and crash.

More myth dispelling here ....
http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106767

in short, always work on the front first... the rears follow, (excuse the pun)

[v8ian]

1st rule modifying cars, make sure it stops. Make sure the discs are in good condition, if new De greased, if used , de glazed and no rust!!!! use a good quality of pad, I like GREEN STUFF, read the instructions with the pads and bed the pads in correctly. IMHO. You can never have too good enough brakes, as long as they are set up correctly there should not be a problem
Ian

[MK1 CAS]

Thanks guys,
I understand about the locking up of the rears becasue of the un-balance brake set up.

but what I see alot of is the whole MK2 2litre setup being utilised in a MK1, and I just wanted to make the right decision the 1st time and get it right. (isn't that what these forums are here for?)

I will keep my MK1 1300 drums on the rear and do my upgrade on the front.

The whole thing about motorbikes lifting rear wheel as an example is good to visualise, but it is actually incorrect, I ride a bike and know from experience that hitting the front brakes and only the fronts, requires alot more force to stop, than applying the fronts and then the rears a split second later (you act as your own bias valve). I actually use my rear brake alot more than my front, as it helps you turn quicker and slows down the engine at the same time.

I just wanted to know if it is going to be a worth while investment changing to vented disks, with Braided lines and reco'd M16 Caliper.
(I can see by what i have said that any braided line and reco of brakes is going to be beneficial, but I would like to know is if you would bother for a car with a projected 130hp at the motor?)

pray:

[Retromotorsport]

Yes .
in todays driving condition the brakes are used a lot more, the flow of traffic isnt like it was years ago, when you could cruise along and never touch the brakes , now its race to the stop all the time.

Vented discs, braided lines, and recon M16 calipers, with good pads

[MK1 CAS]

Thanks alot for all the help fellas, i feel alot better knowing your opinions on the upgrades.

CHEERS!

[Graham]

Thanks guys,
I understand about the locking up of the rears becasue of the un-balance brake set up.

but what I see alot of is the whole MK2 2litre setup being utilised in a MK1, and I just wanted to make the right decision the 1st time and get it right. (isn't that what these forums are here for?)



The whole thing about motorbikes lifting rear wheel as an example is good to visualise, but it is actually incorrect, I ride a bike and know from experience that hitting the front brakes and only the fronts, requires alot more force to stop, than applying the fronts and then the rears a split second later (you act as your own bias valve). I actually use my rear brake alot more than my front, as it helps you turn quicker and slows down the engine at the same time.


pray:

hmm we could open up another line of debate here! as a motorcylist of 20+ years and for quite a few years london despatch rider, all on sports bikes, i was making a point, some motorcyle racers do only use the front brakes, i personally use a bit of both it makes a nicer ride not to have the forks diving, although under maxium attack braking with sticky tyres in the dry if feel the only real benifit of using the rear is it keeps the bike a bit more stable, not that the moto Gp or WSB guys care about that, there are some like me (20 years ago) that recon the only real purpose of the rear brake was to control wheelies that were getting out of hand

[Retromotorsport]

Anyone remember slinkies... a spring that walked down stairs etc ...

well the slinkie shows what stored energy does..

the slinkie falls over and in doing so stretches, the stored energy that is in the spring then lifts the trailing end up and over the leading end as the leading end hits the ground and stops moving. Now because its moving it has enough energy to go over center and start the hole thing of again.

When you apply the brakes on a vehical the center of gravity is moved forward and due to the suspension compressing also down. The stored energy in the body still wants to move forward as the wheel resists, this is the pivot point. the anchoar... some of the stored energy pushes the anchoar along and some swings around it. The center of gravity has a roll in this as in most vehicals its above the wheel center.
This is why the wheels can lift on a saloon car and bike... as the body mass is pivoted around the anchaoring point.

The only thing that can lower the back end is a decrese in front brake action or slower speed, as the energy pushing the car over the anchoar is less. Rear brake cannot pull down the rear down unless its applied on its own. Or at a greater ammount than the front, but this will result in longer stopping distences.


Try this... every time the box will flip over the braking finger. Low brake. high force finger.

[Dave]

Gary, how did you draw around your fingers in "paint"?

[Graham]

i'm just glad its only his fingers he drew round

they were fingers werent they?

[Ratters]

Where's the nail varnish?

[MK1 CAS]

Easy Fellas..... Well i started to phone around and was quoted $250 each capri disk...DAMN!
but i found a distributor in OZ that will do it for $150 a disk.

I wish we got the 2.8i in OZ, it would make life so much easier when upgrading escorts.

oh yeah, got my new black loop pile carpet with underlay for $140...can't wait to put it in.

what peeps opinions on bendix ultimate compared to "Green Stuff"?

[DaveWRC]

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/catalog...oducts_id=6605

Look here these are a pair for around £60 dunno if it will work out cheaper for you or not tho

[MK1 CAS]

My capri disks arrived...from the UK of course (it is cheaper for me to buy them here from an Aussie dealer that imports the disk, than to get those 40 pound disks from rallydesign.

The caliper spacer kit if from NZ...once again made in the UK shipped to NZ and Cheaper for me to buy from NZ than in Aus or UK.

I wanted to know, from peeps opinions if i got all the right gear here so far.
Is my caliper spacer kit complete?

[Dave]

Looks OK to me.
You might need some longer bolts to fasten the calliper to the strut.

[Graham]

looks good to me

[MK1 CAS]

what bolt would suit?
MK2 2litre strut? and how much longer do i need it to be?

[Graham]

dunno about daves, but my car didn't need any longer bolts

[MK1 CAS]

Good News...Got home to find my new Braided Brake hoses.
$160 delivered (which is about 70 pounds for the imperialists).

got MK2 metrics for the front and Imperial Rear to fit my 8" drums.
If i find i want to change to 9" drums, i will get the solids pipes re made on the diff as they are cheaper than 1 braided line (go figure).

I would like to know whether to invest in some Green stuffs or go straight to ultimate (ive been told to experiment with Green stuff for winter use and Ultimates for summer and track days) I dont think the climate makes that much difference, plus I will have vented disks now...HEY!

I am grinning while typing this.

[MK1 CAS]

I am putting together my front struts, as i have removed the solid disks and are about to put the new disks on.

[1]Should i replace the wheel bearings ($80 in total, chance of not failing on me 90% - 99%)
or
[2]or clean bearings with metholdated spirits and repack them with high temp grease (cost $0, chance of not failing on me at 120km/h 40% - 60%)

how often do you guys repack or replace your bearings?

[Dave]

I personally would clean and repack them, (well actually I would probably just put them on)
Wheel bearings usually give you plenty of warning when they are on the way out.

[Graham]

if when you wash the bearings there are no disscoloured or otherwise damaged rollers and the outer part of the race in the hub which they run against isn't pitted and is just a nice even dull gray colour then theres not reason to change them just repack them with grease

[MK1 CAS]

The bearings look in real good shape.
Went to the library and got me an Escort manual (highly recommend it), had a good read.

I pulled my calipers apart, cleaned the inside with Metho' as instructed, rubbed the piston down with Wet/Dry paper(2000 grit) soaked in Meths then rubbed really softly to get the dirt off the top half of the piston just above where the seal sits.

I let it dry off and lubricated everything in some old brake fluid(clean) and using a block of wood and a hammer I managed to get my pistons back in with no trouble.

I also fitted my Spacer kit. (YAY!)


Soaked the bearings in Meths as well then left them to dry off, there is no colouring of the metal and all races are smooth and silver/grey.

I have some old Axel grease here (my dads from like 30 years ago) but I think I will buy some grease next week.

I am going to paint my struts in GM Black matt and my brake booster aswell tomorrow.

Then assemble everything next week.

I will put pictures up when I have done the job.

Thanks for all the Help Fellas!
Appreciated!

[dangerousdave]

Definately made the right choice here, had a shit in pants moment the other week in the back roads near my house, about 3 corners in and my brakes had overheated and were shit to say the least, when i got home they were smoking a bit and the disks had gone purpley blue coloured (like when you heat up a bit of metal to harden?? it)!!!!

Definately upgrading the front brakes over the winter as i dont want that happening again Oh and thats with a 1600 xflow and about 100ish hp

[MK1 CAS]

OMG!... I been meaning to post this for the past week.

I fitted the calipers to the strut, turns out the back to the front section of the hub (the part that meets the wheel) is touching the caliper...WHY?

[The spacer centres the caliper pretty well, it was on tight but not crazy tight; plus i didn;t full tighten my bearings so when i do it is going to rub even worse]

Has anyone had this happen? I am freaking out. should i get longer bolts and pop in a washer?


I also think i need new bolts to mount the caliper. The bolts hold teh caliper but there is still about 3-5mm of thread left in the mount.

guys please let me know if you have had troubles with this conversion and how you got around it.

[bortaf]

When i fit capri spaced calipers to a cortina (different car i know but follow me here) i have to centralise the caliper with 2 X 5mm washers, now last week i bought a pair and vented discs off a capri and the calipers came with 2 washers per caliper zip tied to them so i assume that the capri also uses the washers to centralise the caliper?
Not 100% on this cos i didn't take em off personly, but that could be the problem ??

[Svein]

Capri 2.8i and group 4 Escorts use longer bolts and a thick washer with vented discs

[MK1 CAS]

but you'd think that because you bought a kit from a reputable rally suppliers (palmside.co.nz) that you would get something that fit 1st time.

I dunno guys......I was so happy that i got it, now I got da shyts...

[MK1 CAS]

As you can see by the spacer kit it came with mounting spacers...Pfft..they needs atleast another 2mm (min) spacing.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/lowe123/caliper_hub.JPG
http://members.optusnet.com.au/lowe123/clearance.JPG
http://members.optusnet.com.au/lowe123/touching.JPG

Have a look, I need to get some better angles of the caliper mount.
The reason i think i needs longer bolts is because of the bolt stopper bracket (that thing that stop it from opening)

and the fact the bolt does not come all the way to the end (better safe than sorry).

I am more concerned as to why the caliper touches the outter edge of the hub, when the caliper is centred perfectly as you can see in the pic.


http://members.optusnet.com.au/lowe123/

[MK1 CAS]

I got home and did some measuring
The strut mount point (threaded area) is 20mm
The caliper mount point is 19mm
the spacers i got are 5mm

The standard bolts are M12 ( HT 8.8 spec) length 35mm (from tip to inside hex head) the thread is 21mm meaning the collar blank is 14mm (so the bolt is already at its maximum when on the strut. (35mm - 39mm = -4mm)

If you add my washer plus the extra 3mm spacing i need to clear the hub I need a 50mm bolt. with a minimum of 22mm thread (for safety).

Oh yeah, the thread is course not fine.

I think that should fix it...Hmmmm..please correct me on my numbers if I am wrong.

[Retromotorsport]

If the caliper is central then leave it there, if not get some some spacers made up to centralise it... fully tighten the hub up to take out the free play as you normally would, then add the caliper and shims.. see if it will tighten up, the gap between them is tight, but there should be a gap. If not, have a small amount machined of the hub flange edge to clear by 2-3mm.

It may be my eyes but that Flange looks a bigger diameter to me than we have here

[MK1 CAS]

Cheers mate.
I am waiting on the right bolts, which I am ordering today from the UK.
Have you heard of this happening before?

[alladdin]

i have seen some outer flanges which are schamfered off at 45deg at the outside inner edge. this as std part not modded. would this be enough to clear ? mike