Best pinto valves?

[jorgo]

Hi all,

Short time member of the forums from Melbourne Australia. Have been reading and learnt alot on here already!
I'm currently putting together a 2l pinto that came with a Mk3 estate project i was given.

The head looks to be ported but that is all i know at this stage. Valves are standard so after reading alot of threads on here and also some of Vizards book it seems upsizing the inlet valves is a good place to start. This motor will be in a regularly driven road car. The current cam is unknown however i think i will end up with something mild in the 2500-6500 rev range.

Have seen alot of valves available in various shapes, sizes and more importantly length.

The point of this thread is to hopefully come to some sort of conclusion as to which is the best designed and correctly sized valve available? 44.5 or larger? Also if and where they are available onine etc would be helpful.

Looking forward to reading some opinions.

Aaron.

[RWD fords rule]

Ok, here is my opinion on pinto valves,

Most people use stainless valves from burton, in 45.5mm and 38.1mm, they have the std multi groove collet grooves.

Stainless vlaves and multi grooves do not go well together as they will wear out the collet grooves, stainless is too soft for multi groove.

I only use valves from REC (race engine components) Paul Ivey hardened steel valves, they come in std multi groove and single groove for racing and ultimate reliability.

He makes them in various different lengths and diameters, go for the shortest and largest diameter 2.0 valves he does in multi groove for a road engine that will not be revved above 7k they will last forever, for a competition engine using 7.5 to 8k+ rev limit use single keeper valves.

The single keeper collets are actually v6 essex ones which can be used with the std pinto spring caps.

Go for 45.5mm inlets as the std pinto inlet ports need at least this valve size to flow well, even a very mildly tuned engine will benefit from 45.5mm inlets or bigger.


For a fast road engine I would use the std exhaust valves, just modified to vizard specs (30 deg back cut) and 46mm inlets or idealy 47mm diameter (custom made) with the std length, definately a minimum of 45.5mm diameter inlets.

Go for an FR30 cam for a very torquey engine with very good fuel econemy, power tops out at about 6k.

Or an FR31 cam for a little more top end power at the expense of some low end torque and fuel econemy.

And by the way, the 2.0 injection head is by far the best head to use.



Jason

[jorgo]

Hi Jason, thanks for the fast reply! Appreciated!

I've seen the REC valves mentioned quite alot around the forums. I would like to usethe keepers etc i already have from the stock valves so the 45.5 with 3 groove keepers sounds like a good option. You mentioned get the shortest and thickest available, what sizes? Will the thickest still fit stock guides? Can i see and by them somewhere online?


Was thinking something along the lines of the fr30, 31. Its manual by the way.

Re. the EFI head vs carby head, how can i tell the difference or try to identify my head? Do they have identifyable casting numbers?

thanks for the help so far,

Aaron

[RWD fords rule]

Hi Jason, thanks for the fast reply! Appreciated!

I've seen the REC valves mentioned quite alot around the forums. I would like to usethe keepers etc i already have from the stock valves so the 45.5 with 3 groove keepers sounds like a good option. You mentioned get the shortest and thickest available, what sizes? Will the thickest still fit stock guides? Can i see and by them somewhere online?


Was thinking something along the lines of the fr30, 31. Its manual by the way.

Re. the EFI head vs carby head, how can i tell the difference or try to identify my head? Do they have identifyable casting numbers?

thanks for the help so far,

Aaron

Hi Aaron

I said go for the shortest 2.0 valves with the largest diameter, as in head diameter, not stem diameter.
I always use bronze k lines with those valves as they do not have chromed stems so you have no choice but to use bronze guides anyway.
Bronze guides virtually last forever even when you port all the guide boss away from the inside of the ports to get higher flow rates.

I don't know if Paul does 45.5mm inlets with tripple grooves, best give him a ring and oreder them off him directly, do a few searches on google for REC, or rimflow valves, or Paul Ivey and I'm sure you will find his number.

The efi head has an injestor boss cutout at the top of the inlet ports, the old carb head has perfectly round ports, the inj head was the latest version of the pinto with a 205 block and the revised cylinderhead design, the only difference is the inlet ports flow far more air in std and modified form, for example a std efi head flows more air than a fully ported stage 1 carb head, (both having std size inlet valves).

Jason

[ncoll1]

for example a std efi head flows more air than a fully ported stage 1 carb head, (both having std size inlet valves).

Not necessarily so, it all depends on who's modified the head. The carb cylinder head with standard size inlet valves, valve seats recut and the valve throat modified no deeper than 3/4" from the valve seat can be made to outflow the EFI head. If you take a look at the graph below, the green line is the standard carb head, the blue line above it is a standard injection head, the red line is what i would call an economy standard valve carb head, the light blue line at the top is an injection head with a 44.5 mm inlet valve, small mods to chamber(no more), valve seats cut, and the valve throat modified no further into the throat than 1.5" from the seat. The trick with these cylinder heads with the port angle of entry like the pinto is the short side radius.

Happy grinding

ncoll1

[jorgo]

Thanks for the info guys! Keep it coming.

Im guessing you meant injector boss? What exactly do they look like? My posrts seem to come to a slight pointy shape at the top rather that a perfect round circle.

[Dave]

My posrts seem to come to a slight pointy shape at the top rather that a perfect round circle.

That's the shape of injection ports. Egg shaped rather than round. The pointy bit at the top is where the injectors sit.

[jorgo]

Have a pic of the head i will try to post up shortly. Not home to inspect the head now. Quick look of it shows a slight point at the top of the ports, not as pronounced as i remember it looking in person.

Do you think its an EFI head?

[jorgo]

Sorry about the large size, thought i would leave them bigger so you can read casting numbers etc.

[Graham]

that is NOT an efi head

[Graham]

this is an efi head

[jorgo]

Ok thanks Graham.

[paul735]

While we are on the topic, what is the ideal spring pressure to be using with a 3/4 style cam and stage 1 valve setup?
Mine are doubles rated at about 55-60 pounds?

[RWD fords rule]

Not necessarily so, it all depends on who's modified the head.

Very true, nice flow test results there, I was going on the best porting "attempts" by other engine tuners, not my own reults as I haven't got a flowbench just jet, building one soon and looking forward to some srious porting with the aid of my ultrasound thickness tester and a little port filler.

What port filler do you use or are you a metal remove only guy?

Regards

Jason

[jorgo]

After a look around on google i came across GSvalves who make the Rimflow valves.

This is what their catalogue shows available for the pinto.

Ford - Rimflow (S/V) (Retainers and Guides Available)
Part No. Make Head Dia. Type Comments
Escort / Cortina / Capri
SV 320/1 Pinto 2.0 Litre Group A Rimflow 1.655”/42.0mm Inlet Triple Groove
SV 320/2 Pinto 2.0 Litre Group 1 Rimflow 1.750”/44.4mm Inlet Triple Groove
SV 320/3 Pinto 2.0 Litre Group 1 Rimflow 1.750”/44.4mm Inlet Single Groove / Short Length
SV 320/56 Pinto 2.0 Litre Group A Rimflow 1.420”/36.0mm Exhaust Triple Groove
SV 320/57 Pinto 2.0 Litre Group 1 Rimflow 1.500”/38.0mm Exhaust Triple Groove
SV 320/58 Pinto 2.0 Litre Group 1 Rimflow 1.500”/38.0mm Exhaust Single Groove / Short Length

REC 382 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre 1.647”/41.8mm Inlet Group 2 Length
2581 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre Group 1 1.750”/44.4mm Inlet Inlet Material
REC 213 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre Group 1 1.750”/44.4mm Inlet Undercut Stem
REC 855 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre Group 1 1.750”/44.4mm Inlet 1600cc Length / Single Groove
REC 296 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre 1.759”/44.4mm Inlet Std. Length / Single Groove
REC 296/1 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre 1.759”/44.4mm Inlet O/S Length +1mm/ Single Groove
REC 882 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre 1.800”/45.7mm Inlet O/S H/D, Std. Length / Single Groove
REC 454 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre 1.791”/45.5mm Inlet O/S Length +2.5mm
REC 383 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre 1.417”/36.0mm Exhaust Group 2 Length
REC 426 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre 1.437”/36.5mm Exhaust Stellite Seat
REC 214 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre Group 1 1.500”/38.0mm Exhaust Wide Seat
REC 214N RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre Group 1 1.500”/38.0mm Exhaust Narrow Seat
REC 455 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre Group 1 1.500”/38.0mm Exhaust
REC 297 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre 1.500”/38.0mm Exhaust Std. Length / Single Groove
REC 297/1 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre 1.500”/38.0mm Exhaust O/S Length +1mm/ Single Groove
REC 856 RS2000, Pinto 2.0 Litre 1.500”/38.0mm Exhaust 1600cc Length / Single Groove


Alot more to chose from than i expected!

[RWD fords rule]

A good few years ago I was looking for a set of rimflow valves off GS valves and they told me to contact Paul Ivey REC.

All those valves with REC in the part number are made by Paul Ivey, and I am pretty sure all of the other valves are made by him aswel as I know he also does the rimflow valves.

All the group 1 valves are too long.

Go for the "REC 882" 1.8" inlet std lenght single groove and the "REC 297" 1.5" exhaust std length single groove.


For your application you could go for the 1.8" inlets and use the std exhaust to save some money.


Jason

[jorgo]

This is from the specs section for those 2 valves.

Part No. Head Dia. Length Stem Dia. Material Hardened Tip Groove Type

REC 297 1.500 4.352 0.3156 214N Stellite Tip Single Groove - Type 6

REC 882 1.800 4.375 0.3166 214N Stellite Tip Single Groove - Type 6

Type 6 - Single (Bull Lock) Groove (Reduced End)

[Graham]

gs and paul ivy used to be basically the same thing!

[RWD fords rule]

This is from the specs section for those 2 valves.

Part No. Head Dia. Length Stem Dia. Material Hardened Tip Groove Type

REC 297 1.500 4.352 0.3156 214N Stellite Tip Single Groove - Type 6

REC 882 1.800 4.375 0.3166 214N Stellite Tip Single Groove - Type 6

Type 6 - Single (Bull Lock) Groove (Reduced End)

Where are you getting all the information from?

Can you post a link here to the website please?

Those inlets are about 1mm too long as the std inlets are actually 110mm long if they had a more normal 1.2mm land thickness.

The single keepers are 3.0 essex, and they work with the std spring caps.
The end of the valve is reduced very slightly from 8mm to 5/16" to suit the essex keepers since the essex valves are 5/16" diameter.

You can buy new essex single groove keepers from burton power,

It actually works out almost the exact same price, buying 1.79" and 1.5" tripple groove stainless valves and a new set of keepers from burton power verses buying a set of single groove 1.8" and 1.5" valves from REC and a new set of essex keepers from burton power,

The quality of the single groove REC valves is way better, they are also lighter and shorter than any of the inferior tripple groove stainless valves out there, the burton stainless valves are 111.5mm long, and that is the new shorter design, they should be 110mm inlet and 110.5mm exhaust.

As a good guide you loose 0.3mm valve lift for every 1mm the valve is too long.


Jason

[jorgo]

I got the catalogue in pdf from GS valves. they emailed it too me after i asked about where to get the REC valves.

They make the valves for paul ivey.

Im a little confused about the length. Doesnt seem to be anything else shorter, i posted all the pinto valves available.

[RWD fords rule]

I got the catalogue in pdf from GS valves. they emailed it too me after i asked about where to get the REC valves.

They make the valves for paul ivey.

Im a little confused about the length. Doesnt seem to be anything else shorter, i posted all the pinto valves available.

They are the shortest valves I know of appart from 46mm diameter 110mm length valves from puma race engines, they are steel, std multi keeper, would be very similar to the 1.8" inlets above but the propper length.

£60 for a set of 4 inlets is a pretty good price, let me know if you get in contact with him as I have never managed to get through to his phone line.

Jason

[jorgo]

Yeah i have rad about those valves on his site, look to be a good option. Do you mean youve never had any luck trying to contact him to buy a set?

[Escort TC]

@Jorgo Please can you make a pic of the bottom the head with the comb. chamber.

[jorgo]

yes i will add one soon, why?

[Escort TC]

your head has a old cast nr. "70HM". May be you have a genuine Gr.1 head.

[jorgo]

Here is a chamber closeup without valves in. compared to a stock head i have there is less gap between the cutouts that the valves sit in. Looks almost like it could have had bigger valves in it at one point.



With valves in.





Compared to stock head.

[jorgo]

Ports comparison. Ports on the blue head are about 5-6mm wider than the stock head.

[Roger Miller]

your head has a old cast nr. "70HM". May be you have a genuine Gr.1 head.

Means nothing and nothing about age either

[Escort TC]

@ Jorgo Sorry, but isnt

@Roger Miller Yes, but a Grp 1 head you can only build from the old "70HM". The Ford-Work in germany has make special head for Grp 1. are very rare.

[RWD fords rule]

Ports comparison. Ports on the blue head are about 5-6mm wider than the stock head.

Unfortunately that head was not ported very well, the inet port has been ported at the roof which is ok but it has also been heavily ported at the bottom, look how much lower the bottom of the inlet port is, the casting bridge at the bottom is very thin.
This will greatly reduce bhp and increase fuel dropout.

Not to worry though as you can fix this with some port filler such as jb weld to make the port D sahped. If you do a good job you will end up with a very well flowing head, just roughen the port floor really well to give the filler a good key.

Jason

[jorgo]

Yes i was thinkin about filling them up. Read about it in the Vizard book.

What do you think about the valve seat areas? Do you think its had bigger valves at some stage?

[Graham]

What do you think about the valve seat areas? Do you think its had bigger valves at some stage?

no, a lot of the heads came from the factory like that, if it had of had bigger valves at some time they did a rubbish job beacuse the should of opened the throats out and therefore it wouldnt be possible to retro fit std valves

[GB]

REC head needs a freshen up but nice to have in stock along with an Ivor Greenwood and Lowman Jones heads.

[RWD fords rule]

REC head needs a freshen up but nice to have in stock along with an Ivor Greenwood and Lowman Jones heads.

Porting looks good.
I see you were not using an air filer, the inlet seats last much longer if you use a good air filter.

Jason

[Roger Miller]

but a Grp 1 head you can only build from the old "70HM". The

Why ??

[jorgo]

Anyone know this cam? This is what came on the above mentioned head. Has followers labled 'camtec'.

[RWD fords rule]

Anyone know this cam? This is what came on the above mentioned head. Has followers labled 'camtec'.

Have a look at the back end of the camshaft as that is where the part number will be.

Then Have a look here: http://www.camtechcams.com.au/cat/ford.html

All the pinto cams listed there are very old profiles with poor valve acceleration and cam lift.

Jason

[Escort TC]

@Roger Miller its not legal for Grp 1 rules.

[jorgo]

Have a look at the back end of the camshaft as that is where the part number will be.

Then Have a look here: http://www.camtechcams.com.au/cat/ford.html

All the pinto cams listed there are very old profiles with poor valve acceleration and cam lift.

Jason

Hi Jason, there is nothing on the back of the cam, maybe it is stock grind? Has EP 26 on the shaft in between the lobes if this helps?

I emailed that camtech site and they say its not theres. They are camtec(h) not camtec.

Aaron

[DarthVader]

Why not use valves from other manufacturers :

Head Diameter Stem Diameter Length
Toyota 21R
EX Valve 37mm 8mm 112.9mm
IN Valve 45mm 8mm 114mm

Toyota 22R
EX Valve 37mm 8mm 112.3mm
IN Valve 45mm 8mm 113.5mm

Mazda F8
IN Valve 44mm 8.1mm 111.2mm

Mazda WL
EX Valve 37.3mm 8.5mm 112.8mm