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Thread: pete a 2.2 200 and a bit bhp pinto

  1. #81
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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    its on 45mm TB's

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    i'm changing 182 to 186 now, didn't realise it was on 45 throttle bodies, thought it was going on 45 webers, thats gotta be worth a good couple of horsepower top end surely.
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    172
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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by caprimentle View Post
    i'm changing 182 to 186 now, didn't realise it was on 45 throttle bodies, thought it was going on 45 webers, thats gotta be worth a good couple of horsepower top end surely.
    no i doubt tbs will give any more topend than 45's, but it should haul arse from much lower revs

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    I would expect 185 - 187 due to being 2.2 but if it was 2.0 lt with the CR of 11 to 1, it will probably produce around 170-175.
    The head porting is very very nice.
    May I ask, What lenght are the valves in this head ?

    Regards

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    dont remember valve length but they came from vulcan engineering

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    dont remember valve length but they came from vulcan engineering
    Thank you Graham.
    They are probably the typical gr1 lenght.
    Regards,
    Kerem

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    I should really have asked this before I went!!
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    168bhp

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    191 bhp

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    I can already guess there will be a lot of speculation/doubt/disagreement about this!!

    I know people will say it's the rollers, how they were set up or something was missed!

    But all I can do is show you the graph




    That's 197bhp and 164lbft



    And when you've all had time to see it, I'll tell you something else
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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  13. #92
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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    F@@K me! TBH i'd of been a pretty dissappointed it didnt make at least 180, in the back of my mind was the fact on a 2.0 peps get 175 from that cam i reasoned 185 perhaps as high as 190 might of been possible.

    dazzle if you remember we fiirst talked about this engine having 180 odd bhp, i said that not problem but if you also want it proper useable road going grunt it needs to have big cc and rally cam, but i never imagined an RL31 would knock the door of 200bhp, mr walker would of been getting a bit excited i know for sure he gets all very misty eyed when he sees a good pinto!
    Last edited by Graham; 11-09-2011 at 06:07.

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    looks about right to me. I have the same cam and 2.2 set up and when it was fresh and new went on the rollers at 167bhp at the wheels.

    nice figures

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    Now thats a result! And not at all out of puff at 7000

    Makes me think how would it perform with 12,5cr and all racy cam.... but obviously would ruin the road going features of the engine. I believe it's perfect for intended use.

    Any pics of the installation/ bay dazzle?

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Montyman View Post
    looks about right to me. I have the same cam and 2.2 set up and when it was fresh and new went on the rollers at 167bhp at the wheels.

    nice figures
    Was yours on management or carbs?

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    Carbs, 45s with 40mm chokes. So with the benefit of hindsight, not quite the same set up. Just looking at going over to TB's now.

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    What a lovely road engine, thats very impressive
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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    Such a nice engine. Really to have this much power with rather moderate CR is absolutely wonderful.
    The RL31 is a very very nice rally cam but I am sure this is the first engine here having this much power using this profile. It must be because of the excellent cylinder head port job, the capacity and the TBs plus the quality build when into this engine.

    Conguratulations.

    May I ask, what was the fuel, cam timing and the ignition advance during the run ?

    Graham, what would be the MAX CR to use with RL31 in your opinion in the non-long rod engine ?

    Regards,
    Kerem

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    i'm absolutely amazed, never knew the rl31 would give so much, i bet that it really really nice to drive
    its not dead till it's buried!


    T.I.T engineering. "Feel the power!"

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    Eh sorry lads but 197bhp with that cam is impossible imho, the RL31 cam only have 245*@.050" lift with lash, where as the GTS4, HT1 etc cams have 260*@.050", which is a massive difference in inlet open area

    The tb's are undoubtedly adding a lot more power but 197 is very hard to believe unless you've got the best pinto head in the country by a long shot

    Great result anyway, it is obviously dialed in really well regardless of what the figures might be on a bolt on dyno and that's all that really matters
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    On second thoughts I could be wrong, we recently built a 2027cc pinto with a BF63 cam (which also has 245*@.050" but a tighter LSA), on 50's with longer rods, injection stage 3 head, just under 12 to 1 comp etc, and it made 190bhp and 158lb/ft, so if that had have been 2.2 it would have made 203bhp and 169lb/ft (80mm stroke x 93mm bore)

    So your figures sound right actually, the 2.2 bit was throwing me off
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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    What sort of exhaust manifold and system did you use, primary and main pipe diameters?
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    The RL31 cam has a much wider LSA than the GTS4, HT1, RL32 etc cams, which I believe works far better with the pinto engine, wider LSA = less overlap which gives you much better low to mid range power and the later intake closing point gives you all the top end you need, I hate how the GTS4 and HT1 etc cams perform below 4000rpm, total rubbish for rallying imho as they have no go out of the corners no matter what compression you are running, wider LSA makes a really nice engine, building on the torque the pinto already has instead of turning it into something very much like a peaky hp tuned low cc 16v engine
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    Re: pete a 2.2 pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by RWD fords rule View Post
    What sort of exhaust manifold and system did you use, primary and main pipe diameters?
    its a 105speed, dazzle already had it so it just went back on

    So your figures sound right actually, the 2.2 bit was throwing me off
    thanks, daves rollers have regularly produced results that match proper engine dynos, and my bmw engines always make the expected power, if anything the on track performance of my engines suggest the rollers conservative

    The RL31 cam has a much wider LSA than the GTS4, HT1, RL32 etc cams, which I believe works far better with the pinto engine, wider LSA = less overlap which gives you much better low to mid range power and the later intake closing point gives you all the top end you need, I hate how the GTS4 and HT1 etc cams perform below 4000rpm, total rubbish for rallying imho as they have no go out of the corners no matter what compression you are running, wider LSA makes a really nice engine, building on the torque the pinto already has instead of turning it into something very much like a peaky hp tuned low cc 16v engine
    quite a few peps use HT's on the road, i dont regard it as a road cam by any stretch of the imagination, hense why i went for a sane cam and big cc, in my view the longer stroke and diesel rods really add a lot to the engine, by comparison Boxxers full on 2.1 HT1 vulcan pinto made 195 if i recall correctly
    Last edited by Graham; 12-09-2011 at 13:43.

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    That is going to be an unreal road engine lol, I hope the rear suspension, gearbox and axle location can cope with it lol
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    what i have just noticed is peak power is basically 7000rpm, i would have thought the 2.2 bottom end would have made peak power quite abit lower at about 6600rpm considering the power bands are ment to be 2750 to 7500rpm, surely if this head was on a 2.0litre bottom end, peak power could be as much as 7500rpm couldn't it? any idea why peak power is so far up the rpm? is it just a well flowing head doing that?
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    power bands quoted by cam manufacturers usually show the extreme upper limit the cam will work at, but if the heads better than the average head then you would expect it to rev on harder

    IIRC jasons RL31 engine peaked at about 7500, as can be seen from the graph an early power run gave 192 @ 7500, before finishing with a final peak fig @7000 so the engine does infact peak at lower revs.

    whilst a dont know the details i do know dave played with induction lengths, i also suspect he swapped the normal heavily flared jenvey trumpets for narrower angled ones, which tends to produce a stronger induction pulse so IF you hit the right length you will get a real power bonus
    Last edited by Graham; 12-09-2011 at 16:45.

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    This Dave fella does this for you?? I want an RR operator like that who has trumpets on shelf to try out for me.

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    this dave is dave walker of emerald cams / ecu and magazine jurno.

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    whilst a dont know the details i do know dave played with induction lengths, i also suspect he swapped the normal heavily flared jenvey trumpets for narrower angled ones, which tends to produce a stronger induction pulse so IF you hit the right length you will get a real power bonus
    there must be a particular calculation for working out the perfect trumpet length isn't there? or is it purely trial and error.
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by alladdin View Post
    this dave is dave walker of emerald cams / ecu and magazine jurno.
    thats the one

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by caprimentle View Post
    there must be a particular calculation for working out the perfect trumpet length isn't there? or is it purely trial and error.
    the problem there is as i've discovered theres much more to it than length, angle and flare on the trumpet also have an effect as does the exact cc, cam valve timing, and even exhaust, there are so many variables and different lengths suit different parts of the rev range, trial and error and overlaying graphs is about the only way to get a complete picture

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    sounds like it would be quicker to change them rather than calculate it too
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    I have just made a basic power curve comparison between 2.2 Pete, 2.0 Linford and the 2.0 BF63 engine we built
    Tom (Group4_Mark2) sent me a good chart before comparing different engines, I adapted his graph to suit, I am sure Tom could make a much better graph but its not too bad, you can see Pete has more bhp all the way up than Linford and it murders Linford for low to mid range torque, bhp and torque curves for Pete and the BF63 engine are quite similar, Pete has more torque from 3750 to 6000rpm or so, I beleive this is the extra cc and also possibly the effect of the different manifold, 45mm TB's and trumpets

    BF63, 50mm carbs, 136mm rods, a tad under 12 to 1, stage 3 inj head, BF63 cam, ashley 3 piece manfiold, 3" system etc 2027cc

    Linford, 45mm TB's, YB rods, 12.1 to 1, stage 3 inj head, Phase 5 cam, ashley 3 piece, 2.5" system, 2000cc

    Pete, 45mm TB's, 1.6 diesel rods, 11.1 cr, stage 3 inj head, RL31 cam, 105 speed manifold, ??" system, 2173cc



    Click image for larger version Name:	Power curve comparison - Pete - Linford - BF63.jpg Views:	85 Size:	56.9 KB ID:	47837
    Last edited by Graham; 12-09-2011 at 18:38. Reason: added comp ratio
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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    It can easily be seen that cams like RL31 and BF63 with wider LSA's and lot less lift on overlap give soooo much more low to mid range power and torque than cams like GTS4, HT1, RL32, Newman Phase 5 etc, they destroy low to mid range all for a little more top end, not at all worth it for rallying or racing imho, as they are very lazy out of corners compared to a cam with less overlap + wider LSA
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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    well pete is 10% more of linford and by looking at the graph its just shy of 10 percent more power too, if both were pure 2000cc i think linford would still just have it.

    edit: just a note though, what fuel was linford on?
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    very interesting, were never know but im pretty sure linford would of actually peaked @ about 7700 pretty close to petes power, bearing in mind the last two degrees advance added put a whole stack more power, which usually means you got more to go.

    i must say after seeing this result when i saw dave white on sat i said "we need to chuck the yb head away and go big cc pinto"

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by caprimentle View Post
    well pete is 10% more of linford and by looking at the graph its just shy of 10 percent more power too, if both were pure 2000cc i think linford would still just have it.

    edit: just a note though, what fuel was linford on?
    better still make linford 10% bigger and finish the map! linford was on shell v power

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by caprimentle View Post
    well pete is 10% more of linford and by looking at the graph its just shy of 10 percent more power too, if both were pure 2000cc i think linford would still just have it.
    It is the shape of the power and torque curves that matter most, not the peak figures, look at the BF63 engine, it is 2.0 with an almost identical cam to the RL31 but with a slightly tighter LSA, (I have previously mapped both profiles at a series of lift points) and yet it makes more power than the Linford engine at all rpm's, my point is the RL31 and BF63 cams are much better than Phase 5, HT1 etc
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: pete a 2.2 197bhp pinto

    To be honest Graham, after having looked at several N/A cossie power and torque curves a good pinto would murder them, they are very peaky not much happening until over 6k, personally I would not bother building one for NA use as they are not good unless you really go crazy with the modifications and big 's
    I would build a 2.3 pinto instead, honestly much faster on a sensible ish budget
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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