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Thread: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

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    Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    Hi Turbosport. Before I explain my dilemma, I firstly wanted to say thanks for all the valuable information on this site. I’ve been a lurker here for a while and have benefited significantly from numerous posts and topics where forum members are very generous with their time, knowledge, and experience.

    I’ve owned pinto Capri’s for 20 years and have always wanted to build and install a mildly tuned pinto engine.
    Finally finding myself in a position to undertake the project, I bought a 2L injection head pinto (from a reputable seller), set up a nice workshop in my shed, and started planning the project. I should also mention that I read the Des Hammill book (How to Power Tune For SOHC), and already had both the Ford Workshop and Haynes manuals for reference.

    After researching various camshaft options, I settled on a FR30 as I was particularly keen on having a drivable road car, initially on a 32/36 carb, with increased torque lower down the rev range.

    After disassembling and inspecting the engine, I sent it off to machine shop for:
    • +1mm rebore to suit KS pistons
    • Fit new KS pistons to conrods
    • Crankshaft journey regrind and polish
    • Light skim of block and head
    • Balanced rotating assembly
    • Thorough clean including oilways, and paint.
    With the machining complete and components returned, I measured up to verify what had been done.
    Without giving a blow-by-blow account, I really took my time with the block and head build, ensuring that reassembly was carried out with measurements, clearances, torque all to specified values/tolerances.

    Towards the end of the build process work and life challenges meant that I needed to get the project completed, which lead me to bolting down the head without being fully confident of compression volumes…. (Something that would come back to bite). Based on my assumption that the engine was previously unmodified, I assumed that the light skim of block and head would pep-up my compression ratio by 0.5 to perhaps just under 10:1, ideal for an FR30.

    After finally arranging some time off work, I swapped out the Capri’s original 1.6 for my freshly built 2.0.
    The reproduction alloy sump and 2L clutch assembly created some challenges but I manged to resolve.

    With oil system primed I fired up the engine…
    Turn over speed was extremely slow. I was aware of the high dynamic compression caused by the FR30 cam, but the starter was really struggling and occasional kick-back made the situation worse.
    I reset static ignition timing from approximately 8 degrees down to 4 degrees and tried again.
    She fired up, oil pressure was good, so I ran it at over 2k revs to bed in the cam.

    After carrying out post run-in checks and adjustments it was time for a gentle test drive up the road and back.

    The Problems Begin
    At 2k revs the engine was severely pinking, so to avoid any potential detonation damage I backed right off and limped home.
    Clearly something wasn’t right, most likely compression given that I’d deliberately set static timing fairly retarded.

    Armed with all the information regarding standard and modified volumes from both the Ford manual and Des Hammill book I set up a spreadsheet to firstly prove standard engine compression ratios based on all possible contributing measurements (displacement volume, head combustion chamber volume range 48.60 – 51.60cm3, gasket thickness, and squish/quench), and test out various modifications to try and approximate my compression ratio before taking off the head.

    Getting to the point, my initial calculations showed that compression ratio was potentially somewhere around 11:1 given the felpro head gasket and skims from block/head.

    I decided to remove the head so I could CC it and properly measure piston to deck clearance.
    Results were as follows.

    Head combustion chamber: 40cm3 (Ford spec standard is 48.60 – 51.60cm3)
    Piston crown to block deck: 0.15mm (standard is characteristically 0.5mm)
    Felpro gasket crushed thickness: 1.0mm
    Note, +1mm piston bore giving bore diameter 91.83mm

    The head had clearly been skimmed multiple times to a total cut of over 1.5mm (Des H book).
    The block had also had a substantial total cut.

    Having now suffered the consequences of not checking my volumes properly during the original build I calculated my actual compression ratio to be 11.8:1, and most likely over compressed for the FR30, leading to the detonation experienced on road test.

    Searching for options of how to get the compression down I decided to try a thicker head gasket. I was aware of the importance of correct squish/quench and that although a thicker head gasket would reduce compression it would also reduce the engines resistance to detonation. I decided to give it a shot and ordered a 75thou Cometic gasket to achieve a total squish of 2mm, which I understand is the standard engine squish (Des H book). This would give me a CR of 10.6:1, still on the high side for an FR30 but perhaps much better than the previous CR.

    Last weekend I refitted the head, re-primed oil system, and fired up the engine.
    Turn over was again a real struggle but eventually she fired up.
    Aside from an exhaust manifold leak, the test drive seemed mush better although there was slight pinking when I dumped the throttle from low revs.

    I’m planning to determine the current ignition advance curve this weekend and potentially try to modify the distributor to help reduce detonation risk.

    However, at this stage I feel a bit disheartened and unsure of how best to resolve the situation, with many questions going around my head:
    • Is 10.6:1 CR to high for an FR30 cam?
    • Is a squish of 2mm to low and risking detonation?
    • Should I splash out on a high torque starter motor?
    • Should I just bite the bullet and get the head back off again and consider trying to increase head combustion chamber volume?
    • Change the cam for something else or even standard?
    Apologies for the lengthy post but I wanted to try and explain the situation as much as possible.

    I would be very grateful for any advice.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_4912.jpg‎  

    IMG_4929.jpg‎  

    IMG_5063.jpg‎  


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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    Not an expert but block can't have been 'excessively' decked if the pistons are still down the holes - they usually protrude a bit (I thought)
    New carb? How is it jetted bearing in mind the mods done? Detonation isn't only timing, fueling plays its part also! I see an adjustible cam wheel -
    degreed the cam in correctly?

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    Hi Katana,
    Thanks for your reply.
    Yes, the block is not excessively skimmed, but its enough to contribute to a fairly large CR given that the head combustion chamber is down at 40cc.

    Regarding the carb, before the first engine start I re-jetted, f50 emulsions and 160 main jets.
    The 160 main jets might be a little large but thought that it was a good starting point and would reduce risk of running lean.

    Regarding the Vernier cam, after hours spend determining real TDC and valve full lift at kent specified 110 degrees after TDC with DTI gauges I'm confident it is set correctly.

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    Hello,

    10.6:1 is high for a FR30 cam, you could get it to work (by altering the ignition advance) but certainly not ideal.
    High toque starter: yes always a good investment. Get one from a later Sierra OHC injection.
    What carb is it? A used Weber 32/36 DGV or a new one? Genuine Weber or Chinese replica?
    What ignition do you have? Distributor from what car/engine? On points or electronic?
    Simple test could be to remove the vacuum-pipe from carb-base to distributor (plug it on the car side) and try again if pinking still there.

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    Hi Miniliteman, thanks for the reply.
    Carb is a genuine weber 32/36 DGV which I had running nicely on the 1.6 (although with smaller jets of course).
    I've also used the Bosch distributor from the 1.6, running on points. As far as I know its unmodified but will know more regarding ignition when I investigate further this weekend.

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    10.6 is high for an FR30, what you probably need to do is fit some stiffer springs in the distributor to bring the advance in slower.

    another thought, what fuel are you running on? tesco 99 octane momentum is the best uk pump fuel out there, you might find all you need is better fuel

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    Hi Graham, thanks very much for your reply.
    Fuel is Shell V-Power which I think is 99 octane.
    Thanks for the advice regarding distributor springs.

    What do you think about the 2mm squish gap? Could this be contributing much to detonation or is it more likely to be the high CR as the main issue?

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    Are you definitely sure the cylinder head volume’s 40cc, maybe a photo of the camber may help. If that much had been skimmed off the head the plug hole would now be on the edge of the head face. It can sometimes be a struggle to get 11.5.1 on a 2.0 pinto without going to a lot of trouble.

    Without checking the catalogue, is the FR30 a copy of the old Stig Erson 134 in which case if it is the 10:00.1 would be plenty.

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    I have just found the cams specification. It’s seems to have lot of lift @ tdc for a fast road cam, more than the RL 31. That’s not what’s causing the issue however.

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    Click image for larger version Name:	IMG_5067.jpg Views:	95 Size:	107.3 KB ID:	88462
    Hi, please see photo attached of plug hole right on the edge.
    Fortunately I ran it with short plugs.

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    Not only does the advance has to come in slower (stiffer springs in distributor), the total advance will be too big also.

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    Perhaps you should consider cutting your losses with that head.
    It’s not going to be doing what you hoped and all the work to make it work will also cost time and money.
    I saw that the Lithuanian guys are still selling injection heads.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115708977...temCondition=4

    Othe alternative is learning chamber work and start grinding on the squish pad to carve back 4-5 cc but that is quite a lot of material.
    Try making a block of modeling putty that size to realize what you need to take out.

    As for the block skim, a std 9.2 compression pinto is supposed to be 0,2mm down the bore, So you are not to far off there.

    /T

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    Hi Tpau, thanks for the advice.
    I had thought that ultimately I might have to get another head that’s either unmodified or at least had much less of a skim.
    I saw that injection head on eBay recently but it’s not exactly local, although not necessarily a problem
    Does anyone have experience buying stuff from that particular eBay seller?

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    Basics.

    What is fueling like ? good ? bad ? lean ? other ?

    Have you actually tried pulling a few degrees of timing out of it ? Are you sure your timing checking is correct ?

    At 2000rpm, it's unlikely there would be a lot of advance anyway at WOT. Or are you part throttle with a lot of vac advance ? remove the vac advance to test.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    Thanks everyone for the advice.
    I've got a quick update with some positive news.

    After sorting the exhaust manifold leak I was all set to start plotting my current advance curve as a baseline and then start adjusting using the Dave Andrews article as a guide, and potentially installing a stiffer spring in the centrifugal advance as Graham suggested (thanks Graham).

    I firstly verified my static timing with strobe and vacuum advance disconnected (both ends blocked). It was sat quite happily at 8-10degrees BTDC, and based on the FR30 cams short duration of 260 degrees, a static advance timing of 8-10degreesBTDC seems about right.
    After a very shot test spin up the road and back all seemed well with no pinking at all. So I decided to go for a proper 10mile drive up some hills and country roads.

    It was great! No pinking at all, even when I opened up the throttle on a steep hill from roughly 1500revs. Pulls great from low down. Couldn't stop smiling the whole time

    While my initial compression ratio was far too high and definitely causing significant detonation, the 75thou head gasket seems to have done the trick. Perhaps on that initial short test drive (with 75though head gasket) I was hearing so much of the exhaust manifold leak I was mistaking it for pinking.

    In the longer term I think it will probably be best to find another head with more combustion chamber volume. But for now at least, all seems ok with the current set up.
    After a few more refinements I will get it to the rolling road.

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    If you need a good Injection head I have a spare.
    Im in Hereford so not too far.

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems

    Thanks. I may well be passing through Hereford over summer. Will get in touch ����

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    Re: Pinto Build – Compression Problems


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