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Thread: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

  1. #1721
    Pole Position Decade Plus User Pushrod King's Avatar
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Toymex View Post
    it has got me thinking that if i could afford to do a full season that maybe i shouldnt worry about pace as much as reliability
    Glad you listened to me the other night

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    you gotta be in it to win it

    engine wise, a bit more power isnt going to stress anything as long as i dont wind the revs up more, i've been using 8 or even 8.2 on occasion, though i generally shift at a little over 7k i figure i can push the peak higher without touching the limiter
    Last edited by Graham; 02-11-2011 at 21:18.

  3. #1723
    Pole Position Decade Plus User Pushrod King's Avatar
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    over the course of a full season reliability deffo is more important than outright pace,
    I'll agree with that....If I'd had more reliability and we'd had the replacement round for Donington I'd of been 2nd overall in the championship aswell as winning Class E
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    power and handling are very much a balence,
    That's the point that I was trying to make about my car....IF I had more power I'd lose some of the handling
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    although i seem to always make up ground on the brakes into the tight corners i dont have the high speed bite/confidence to leave paddock hill bend late so i need to work on the brakes
    My brakes are crap compared to yours but the handling makes up for it so maybe you need to work on the handling and buy some new tyres? Smaller is probably the way to go now that you don't have the power and added weight of a turbo.
    Last edited by Pushrod King; 02-11-2011 at 21:25.

  4. #1724
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    dunno my brakes arnt that big they are only 300mm because they were origonally engineered to go in 15 inch wheels, i think the main issue i have is the pad material doesnt suit in an n/a application, the slower speeds and later braking points just dont pile enough heat into them

    yes i know i need different tyres, they simply havnt worked like the tyre man thought they would, they are intended to be on a car with similar power so on paper they should work, but my car doesnt have as much weight or proper full areo package, they'd be great fro a trackday though you could go all day and not wear them out

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    Pit Crew Decade Plus User Group4_Mark2's Avatar

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    You know that you can make the engine more powerful. What is not so clear is how to make the car handle better. What ever work you do on the handling will go to good use on the new shell so will be work well done. Once you get the handling the way you want it you can then build the engine that you want for the new shell also.
    To finish first, you must first finish

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    my opinion, if you dont do it now, your'll only end up doing it later, while the engine is apart it makes sense to do it now, the extra gain in horsepower is only going to make it better, its not going to make it catastrophically worse handling wise, nor is it going to make it unreliable if your keeping the revs the same, i will admit, handling is extremely important but things like lowering the back which you want to do is free, so spend some money beefing up the engine imo
    its not dead till it's buried!


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  7. #1727
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    re the handling, its far from bad, if it were i would of never held bill off lap after lap, and at lydden the other year i set overall fastest lap of the race in both races, handling wise im looking to lower it, if i sort a better lsd too i should be on the money because the car has been stiffened up in the pursuit of traction which wont be needed with a better slipper, so if i back the spring rates off a bit and wind a bit most caster into the front end to offset the slightly increased body roll it, i should get more "feel" which is something i crave,
    Last edited by Graham; 02-11-2011 at 22:39.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    How about slightly smaller wheels? Go back towards the 15", lower unsprung weight - better handling. and lower the car a touch. and an excuse to get some nice new grippy tyres

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    I would be surprised if next year Gavin and Bill are as unreliable as this season. With a little bit of work Iam sure the BMW will have the pace over the Mini on the long tracks.The other thing is hopefully the championship will get more entries next season as more people will look to regional championships rather then national due to costs.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    I would be surprised if next year Gavin and Bill are as unreliable as this season. With a little bit of work Iam sure the BMW will have the pace over the Mini on the long tracks
    im sure your right lee, i shall just have to raise my game again

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Don't we all. Every year.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadsport View Post
    Don't we all. Every year.
    yep, trouble is its rare we actually take a significant step forwards because everyone else has also upped there game

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Exactly. And even the greater undertakings must be finished before the next season or you'll loose some edge of those improvements.
    Say you need to be one second faster every year. Your project takes two winters to finish, you need to be two seconds faster than you originally were just to keep up.
    Of course the case is not exactly like that but close. I know, been there done that.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    have you looked at the aero on your car as well? The Mini and Pug are brick like so maybe some gain there better rear wing and splitter maybe.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    i've only really considered it in the context of getting the whole thing 2 inches closer to the deck, that must help as an e30 has all the areo properties of a barn

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Its just a cheap thing to do a bit of ply from the front bumper extending backwards.It seemed to help with the tyre life and high speed understeer on the Honda.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    tbh i had one on it last year or maybe the year before, it actually got ripped off following a bit of of roading at lydden, loosing it made sod all difference, other than it was a sight easier to get the car on and off the trailer without it!

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    made an interesting discovery today, after removing the inlet manifold complete with throttle bodies i opened the throttles an saw they were going past full throttle by quite a chunk, that must account for a dose of my missing power, the stop on the TB had bent, which was strange and as the pedal has a stop, difficult to understand, until i remembered the pedal braking earlier this year and having to improvise a repair which was minus a stop

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    That must count for alot of those missing horses. Might not need the freshen up. Does it breathe oil or has it lost any oil pressure or compression?

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    i watched the breathers as it was run up, there was a bit of blowby, but using pistons with only one compression ring its bound to show some, i'll do a cylinder leakage test on it.

    i was always going to do a bearing check, as i cant afford to risk a bottom end failure

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Fingers crossed then that the engine should be in good shape. As you say its not worth not checking the bearings etc after a hard seasons racing.
    Hope the jenveys are ok, bloody stupid bmw throttle pedals

    Hope to come up and see how you're getting on before it gets too cold.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Hope the jenveys are ok,
    they are , the stop just needed a tweek with a pair of pliers.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    the $64 question is do i just tickle it or hot it up a bit more by getting a 302 degree cam and fitting that on the intake and moving the current 292 to the exhaust which currently has a 284 cam,
    a question, if you have a DOHC, you mostly have to buy the cams in pairs. I bought 2 290 cam for my engine. Is my setup going to be better if i use inlet 290 and exhaust 264? Or is you're option just to do it cheaper?

    Ford Taunus Going RS2300 16v with 48s!!!

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arieke View Post
    a question, if you have a DOHC, you mostly have to buy the cams in pairs. I bought 2 290 cam for my engine. Is my setup going to be better if i use inlet 290 and exhaust 264? Or is you're option just to do it cheaper?
    difficult to say, most engine dont need as much exhaust cam as inlet, my engine has particulary good exhaust flow so it really doesnt need loads of exhaust cam,

    i would of thought with your engine a 290 and 264 would be a bit too far apart

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  26. #1745
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    oke, thanks.

    if i want something around 275-280 i have to find somebody that make custom cams. I'll do with the 2x 290.

    maybe when i upgrade the engine more I only need 1 cam :-)

    Ford Taunus Going RS2300 16v with 48s!!!

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!




    ok had a little play today, and bolted the slide throttles on, with a couple of cable ties to hold the fuel rail, and a quick reconfig of the ecu to read the linear throttle pot, it ran i didnt dare rev it because it was late, and it was only lashed together, but im pleased to say it seemed good, i was a bit worried it might want to idle at a zillion revs as slide throttles often leak air, as it happens it idled very slow until i wound the throttle stop out a bit, it idled very nicely though.

    one it was warmed up i did a compresion test, 170psi on all cylinders, which is probably rather low considering the cr, but then again pistons with only one compression ring will give low readings at idle/cranking, so i did a leakage test, 50% on all cylinders, which is rather high, but then again is it? with normal pistons on an engine thats done a good bit of work you would expect to see 20% perhaps more, does half the rings mean twice the leakage?????????????
    Last edited by Graham; 16-11-2011 at 21:11.

  28. #1747
    Racer Decade Plus User RWD fords rule's Avatar

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Idling very well with the slide throttle's, I would imagine you are correct about the rings needing a lot higher rpm to seal than cranking and giving low cylinder pressure reading + very high leakage, but seeing the power your engine made it had to have a pretty good seal

    If it was leaking really bad I would expect trouble with blowing out oil even with the dry sump pump and twin scavenge, are you running any crankcase vacuum with a sealed crankcase system or are you venting it to air? Should be able to get 10 to 12" vacuum with a sealed system, but again idle vacuum could be a lot lower with single rings, an email to SBD about what cranking pressure to expect might help as they run single ring pistons in some of their higher spec engines
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

  29. #1748
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    yeah i'd thought about talking to sbd about rings, i used to run a sealed system on the 8v but reverted to open for the 16v as it wasnt oil tight, although i didnt meassure it at idle the pump is still pulling a vacuum in the system

    EDIT, i just spoke to sbd, and they said it can be hard to get accurate leakage tests on single ring pistons but but they normally only see about 20% perhaps 25% so yes i do have a lot of leakage! by way of contrast i leak tested dazzles 2.2 pinto after just a short while on the rollers and that only had 10%
    Last edited by Graham; 17-11-2011 at 18:08.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Bugger, at least you know where you stand now, could make a lot more power for you with a different set of pistons, not cheap I know but what else can you do
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    i'll just re ring it, this years induction system hasnt allowed me to use filters and as the whole of the engine and most of the engine bay has gained a thick dirty gritty coating, it a fair bet a lot of its gone in the engine, i'll be able to filter the new set up

    the ultimate plan involves a new block, longer rods and custom pistons but that probably not going to happen until about 2015!

  32. #1751
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    How do you do a leak test Graham i run the nova without filters so might have the same issues

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    i got a snap on one but this does same thing http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...tester-long-re

    basically you put a piston at tdc on its compression stroke and pressurise the cylinder with compressed air the kit will tell you the % of leakage

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Ok thanks Graham i will see if my mate andy has 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    i got a snap on one but this does same thing http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...tester-long-re

    basically you put a piston at tdc on its compression stroke and pressurise the cylinder with compressed air the kit will tell you the % of leakage

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    yeah i'd thought about talking to sbd about rings, i used to run a sealed system on the 8v but reverted to open for the 16v as it wasnt oil tight, although i didnt meassure it at idle the pump is still pulling a vacuum in the system
    Sorry to stray off topic here but what do you mean by saying it wasnt oil tight hense going with the open system?

  36. #1755
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    it leaked oil!

    with the 8 valve the engine ran sealed no breathers other than the scavenge on the pump and was perfectly oil tight, as a 16v it leaked, so i ran the engine with an open breather, what i dont know was whether it leaked oil because of a poor seal, or that that the combination of more power and single compression ring pistons meant the drysump pump could no longer keep a vacuum in the engine so with a blocked breather it pressurized the oil out the engine

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Oh I see. I'm constantly batling oil leaks too, thats why I was interrested. Mine leaks while standing so propably just poor seal somewhere.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Running crankcase vacuum is worth quite a bit of hp, it gives a better ring seal, I would have thought a single ring setup wouldn't have worked well at all without crankcase vacuum
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    we will find out next year, ill put it back together sealed, and see what happens

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Have you thought about using lateral gas ports to give a better seal or do your pistons already have them? certainly gives a tighter seal by pressing the ring out against the bore
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    they dont and i havint much, TBH i cant see me drilling holes in them myself, a total seal gapless compression ring might be another idea though, assuming i could find some to suit the piston and the odd 95.3mm bore

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