well said Dave, i agree with what you are saying there and have no disputed that newer engines will be better but it takes a long while for the devlopment to really come on and make the a good option to choose, as they are still quite young and haven't been proved in our old ford scene as of yet!
Hence why the old pinto and YB are still widely used as they have been about since the dawn of time and have been devloped as far as they can go although some people are still pushing the boundries!
Old Fords never die.....................they just get made faster!
Duratec is actually a Mazda unit? So, they won't bolt straight on to traditional Ford bellhousing pattern
SBD say they can get up to 208bhp from a standard Duratec (a 2.3 I think) with their induction system which costs £1781.90 (plus VAT). Add a performance cam for 25 more bhp. That's 233 bhp with standard engine. ErmmMaybe someone can ask for a dyno print
. The max you can go before serious modification is needed to the pistons, cranks etc is 245bhp. That's pretty good, if it's true!
Oh, they don't mention torque figures though..
Source
Last edited by SharmCos; 16-05-2006 at 14:01.
ESCORT NUTTER
Penang, Malaysia
there are adaptor bellhousing available to mate the duratec to t5 or type 9 or whatever
My std zetec had 170 bhp on carbs and I haven't seen them make less than 150 on 40's or 45's, I guess you are quoting for a cossie head on twin carbs tooOriginally Posted by EscortDan
yeah but will still give you 150hp!!that is 20 more than a zetec plus it looks the nuts under the bonnet!!
Seen 2 escorts with std cossie (TURBO!!) heads on 45's, one had 140bhp on the rollers and both ran like a sack of percy:
Dont think mine looked that bad in the engine bay either?
Sierra cosworth turbo race car
QMN saloon car championship
RETRO Motorsport
170hp on carbs!? I assume you had the 150hp standard zetec, i was think ing of the 130ps jobbie sorry! With the cossie head and cams out the box so to speak they are not all that good as they are not being forced like with a turbo charged unit!
But why would you want to put a standard head on a standard bottom end, yes it's cheap but to get power you need proper cams with some duration and lift on them! David, yours does look good in the engine bay but some others i have seen are full of plastic covers!!uuukkkkk!!
Old Fords never die.....................they just get made faster!
and yes it did look good but will only look better
No what you mean about all the plastic bits Dan, but on my car anything that doesn't do much goes straight in the bin as its dead weight basically.
I love a good YB N/A as much as the next guy and would love to have one in an escort, my arguement for the more modern engines is really just one of economics. I've seen quite a few mega power N/A cossies racing over the years but they are also mega bucks, £15k+, and these made around 280bhp at the most.
If Scholar do a 290bhp lump for under £10k that needs minimal maintainence and is reliable surely thats good value
To get back on track though, we are only looking for 230bhp and surely the cheapest way to get it is with a 16v engine that is already N/A as std.
Sierra cosworth turbo race car
QMN saloon car championship
RETRO Motorsport
Same here, you have to see those pulleys!!
But like you say we are looking for 230hp, which is quite easy to achive and i think goint to town on a yb is the right route as they make a sex wee wee inducing sound, look right and they rev to the moon if your brave enough and also if you get the head ported to the max you can run 45's - 48's and a set of mildish cams to make the desired 230+ and then slide throttles and different cams to push it more towards the 260+ barrier and we are forgetting the price bracket Gary has set, no more than 5k!!
Old Fords never die.....................they just get made faster!
I got my zetec fitted in my car for 2k and its standard so say 160-170 once mapped. That leaves 3k for tuning which is more than enough to get a zetec to 230bhp. Its swings and round-abouts really, a cossie bolts straight in but needs more parts changing to get the power so they work out about the same amount of money. Cossie has the street cred but Zetec weighs less which can only be good for handling...
She's built like a Steakhouse, but handles like a Bistro
blimey it's hotting up on here !!!!! I'll say it again then , new 16v engines aren't better than old skool 16v engines , they are designed to pass emission regulations , a 2 litre B.D.A. or 2 litre warrior will come pissing past a 2 litre zetec or any other modern 2 litre !!!! A degree in motorsport / engine science doesn't mean jack shit when the clock starts ticking so tell me how i can get 230+ bhp from these new engines then for £5000 all fitted in and working , PLEASE NO MORE HYPE , I WANT TRUE PERFORMANCE , NOT IT MIGHT DO THIS OR MIGHT DO THAT COBBLERS PUB TALK !!!
I do know about fuel injection , mangement , v-tec , turbo's , etc , etc but all i'm asking is can i get 230 bhp for £5000 or less from a 4 pot engine in the car working , and NO TURBO'S or SUPERCHARGERS , as i can get that power from a 1.4 litre pushrod renault engine with a carb on it using them !!!!!
What is begining to wind me up is that whenever a duratec is quoted it has to be a NEW one ready built by scholar or cosworth.
Its always gonna be 5k plus.
But when we talk about the amazing pinto/YB we dont get the qoute for a brand new block and head its always second hand parts sourced.
Now go back and price the duratec using an engine out of a breakers and maybe try a little dabble on ebay(its quite good you no)
OR price the YB with a brand new engine built by cosworth.
I think you'll find you wont build any for under 5k
So this argument/disscusion is percy:
So there
Well if you think about it these older engines have been used for racing/ rallying for decades now, therefore they have had a lot of work/testing/redesigning done to them as they are the only engines that a class allows. If all racers were only allowed to run zetecs or duratecs then the price of the conversion parts would be much less, there would be more precise tuning availible for them, and there would be some big power engines about. In reality this hasnt happened yet as the people with big engine budgets are only allowed to have certain engine so they follow the tried and tested route. Its mainly diyers like rich tuning zetecs in escorts, and small budget racers like dave white that will be fitting modern engines in their cars and breaking the mould. So unless they fork out for the costs of years of fiddling with the engines to get the most power then they are never going to see the full potential of the engines, and for that reason neither will joe public as the tuning companies have to spend their money doing the work in the hopes of creating a nice engine. One example of this is cosworth, they must have done millions on these duratecs to make sure they are a vast improvement on what we have. Think how far they have come in just a couple of years then look at how long it has taken to develop the na yb cossie into what it is, give the duratec the same ammount of time and it will be a better engine.
As for your £5k engine, break the mould and get your hands dirty on an engine and save yourself a lot of £££ and get a sense of achievement like dan has done. Who cares what engine it is, make it fit and tune it to what you find best. I think theres too much bullshit that goes on in the tuning world as for what you must have to get a certain power so do your own reasearch and build your own engine......or you can just flash the plastic and follow the crowds............
I have not said the duratec has to be new have i , all i've said is i want a 230 bhp 4 pot engine that gives the power for £5000 in the car working !!!! I don't give a monkeys what engine i use , a skoda one will do if it meets the above , i don't mind getting my hands dirty either so can the moaning stop and the power quest continue . I've been asking for everybody's input about this but all i'm hearing is ' new engines are better than old ones ' but i can't get one in my car working making 230 bhp for £5000 yet , UNLESS SOMEONE KNOWS DIFFERENT !!!! P.S. when you read a piece of text , you can't tell in what context it's being written , so what you think may be a bit stroppy is infact being said in a lighthearted fashion .
Last edited by mk1 gaz; 16-05-2006 at 21:35.
And if my sister had a knob , she would be my brother !!!!!!
erm...
She's built like a Steakhouse, but handles like a Bistro
I have not said the duratec has to be new have i , all i've said is i want a 230 bhp 4 pot engine that gives the power for £5000 in the car working !!!! I don't give a monkeys what engine i use , a skoda one will do if it meets the above , i don't mind getting my hands dirty either so can the moaning stop and the power quest continue . I've been asking for everybody's input about this but all i'm hearing is ' new engines are better than old ones ' but i can't get one in my car working making 230 bhp for £5000 yet , UNLESS SOMEONE KNOWS DIFFERENT !!!! P.S. when you read a piece of text , you can't tell in what context it's being written , so what you think may be a bit stroppy is infact being said in a lighthearted fashion .
Jesus Mary! I have been following this debate and I cant for the life of me believe someone can be so obstinate against such overwhelming empirical evidance!
Dude.All I will say to you is way back in 1967 (probarbly before you were even born) Both BMC and Ford fielded fuel injected cars for the RAC rally.The result will never be known unfortunately due to the outbreak of foot and mouth. Now ask yourself, why did those giants of the motor industry back then bother pissing around with flacky injection systems of those days?
Fast forward 40 years on to today. Why are Ford using a Duratec in their Focus instead of an old antiquated Pinto Cosworth? And Citroen usin a 16 valver?
You sound like you know more than the combined might of Citroen and Ford!
blimey!!
Old Fords never die.....................they just get made faster!
Can I just remind people that when they say the duratec has yet to prove itself and people aren't really using them yet, WHAT??
The paddaocks are full of them in all different cars, from caterfields to Britcar Focus's and tons of single seaters, sports cars etc etc and you couldn't walk round Autosport without falling over them.
Lots of companies offer a range of tuning packages for new or used engines and fitting them into escorts WILL get easier as they become more commonplace.
I can totally understand you wanting to fit a pinto or yb Gaz, theres nothing wrong there, but all this 'no ones got a decent modern engine' stuff seams a bit odd.
As for zetec escorts didn't I already post a pic of the one that regularly wins, and I mean championships, in the Northern saloons with a 270bhp+ dunnell zetec
BTW what torque figure you looking to achieve Gaz?
Sierra cosworth turbo race car
QMN saloon car championship
RETRO Motorsport
CAn I throw in the 'T' Cars... all running sealed bog standard as they came out the box (fords factory) Duratecs... at 140 bhp they are the standard 2l engine... the Pinto standard 2l is 98 bhp I belive... so there you have it , progress, they have gained 40 bhp in the years between the engines. That makes modern engine more powerfull.
Now lets look on the other side of life... top of the range 16v engines..
BDA @25k
Duratec @10k..... feck me thats 15k difference for the same power, and yes Cosworth are making better power with the Duratec than the BDA
Also the Duratec dosnt need a re-build after every event.
Now all of that means nothing to GAz as hes not bothered what engines best, he knows the Duratec pisses all over the older engines... but its new so is new priced. Hence dosn't come in at the 5k mark he has set
Lets put some new prices on rthe old pinto...
I had a cutomer who wanted a tractable road engine in his RS2000
He shot of down to Charlie at CTM and 3.5k lighter he came back with....
A freshly painted old pinto, with a ported and polishe, slightly larger valved head with a "caravan " cam in it, that sat ontop of 2.1 bottom end, using 2.8i pistons, a shiney inlet manifold with brand new Weber 45's.
Power, pretty damm square 141bhp/141ft/lb
Now thats progress.. All the bits to fit the Zetec on an Escort including the bulkhead cut when using the dunnel sump and gearbox tunnel mods comes in at 3.5-4 k ... and the engines going to make 150, give or take 10bhp, and around that in torque too.
The plus side is ... if the pinto blows up its and spits a rod out, you need to go spending on pistons and block again.. the Zetec, £200 to WYN and he will deliver a Zetec engine to you. Sorry , but the Zetec wins on those levels.
Now send that standard Zetec down to Neil Roper and give him around £600
Cam and headwork done your looking at around the 200 mark, to get the Pinto to 200.... hmmm bit more than £200
So Zetec wins again...
Lets also deal with the age and costs of these engines...
A top spec BDA circa 1980 was around 5k
a top spec RS2000 was around 5k
a top spec Duratec circa 2006 is around 10K
a top spec RS Focus is around 25k
so to get the pinto BDA price in 2006 we times it by 5 = 25k
ah ha thats what the costis now.. so inflation is across the board.
Now lets build a brand new BDG (alloy block) so off we trundle to Wilcox....
http://www.wilcoxengines.demon.co.uk/bda_parts.htm
And we ask him for an Injected engine ... that will be £2267.33.
So to get the power from an old design we are looking at twice the cost of a modern engine.
And yes that outsourcing everything. As thats what people are doing to the Modern engines... why worry about if you built it right when an engine builder is'nt charging the earth for them.
Gaz, your right, you can get a 200+ pinto based engine for 5k
and you can also get a 200+ zetec for under 5k
Full circle or what..?
what the hell is all this waffle about !!!!! Fatgadget have you actually read this thread , i'm not saying fuel injection doesn't work am i , all i'm saying is i want a 230bhp engine in my car working for £5000 , i will use a new type engine , i don't care , so bring some constructive ideas's forward then , and i was born in 1967 !!! David White if i can get a zetec making 230 bhp in the car working for £5000 i will use one , but no-one has said how it can be done yet have they , that's all i've ever been asking . Mr retro you actually understand what i am asking for , a 230 bhp 4 pot engine in the car working for £5000 , i don't care if it's old or new , fuel injected or carbed , 16v ,8v or v-tec , bmw , honda , ford or vauxhall , JUST NO TURBO'S . My pinto in my car cost less than £3000 with everthing ( the engine cost £1600 built !!!! ) , all in and working , with all new parts , i use it on the road , it's tractable , easy to maintain , makes 175 bhp , 184 bhp + 185 bhp depending on which rolling road you believe , runs 14.3 sec quarters ( so far after only a few runs ) on road tyres , full heavy weight car , full recaro heavy trim , soundproofing , carpets , rear seats , glass windows , all steel panels etc , etc . So all the people out there slagging off pinto's should face facts before they start moaning about them , or am i wrong again ?
A small point, why do people get hung up on peak bhp figures its important but its only half the story. The reason pinto's are so good is because they give good power ALL through their power band (4-8k). 16v engines generally don't, you have to rev them to get the most, yes they prob give higher PEAK bhp figure but it doesn't mean its gonna be quicker on the road. On the track they'll be quicker cos you can keep them in the rev range you want.
Duratec's/Zetec's will prob be the future but not yet! I've got a 2.0l duratec in stock just waiting to see if its worth fitting.
Dude get a 2.3l conversion for ya pinto i think you'll be dissappointed if you go 16v.
Patrick
A small point, why do people get hung up on peak bhp figures its important but its only half the story. The reason pinto's are so good is because they give good power ALL through their power band (4-8k). 16v engines generally don't, you have to rev them to get the most, yes they prob give higher PEAK bhp figure but it doesn't mean its gonna be quicker on the road. On the track they'll be quicker cos you can keep them in the rev range you want.
Duratec's/Zetec's will prob be the future but not yet! I've got a 2.0l duratec in stock just waiting to see if its worth fitting.
Dude get a 2.3l conversion for ya pinto i think you'll be dissappointed if you go 16v.
Patrick
Right o here is how mines coming along
2.0 duratec(4000 miles)
45mm jenvey straight to head throttle bodies
pace dry sump and pump
type 9 gear box with bell housing
£1500
Bulkhead mods, gear box tunnel mods, cross member, steering arms
£1000
ecu + mapping
£800
oil tank for dry sump, pipes, cooler and remote filter
£200
=£3500
Now this will be a standard engine with standard injectors and cams and i'm even going to use the standard exhaust.
Hopefully be around 190/200bhp but DONT quote me.
Now add a set of cams
£400
And a decent manifold
£600
Grand total
£4500
You should be seing the best side of 230 and the only non standard bit is the cams.
I break it i go to the breakers and get another one.
That still leaves a bit of cash for a little bit more tuning or some more mapping time.
You could maybe do it a bit cheaper if you tipped the engine back and didn't change the cross member but whats the point in havin 200 brake engine that weighs the same as a x flow and not putting it in right.
Hopefully i will have a reliable 200bhp car that still handles well and is only at the start of its tuning potential.
This is not a straight forward swap and does envolve a bit of cutting but comes in on budget now. Give it another couple of years and it will be even cheaper as everyone starts making conversion parts(happened with the XE)
Anyway thats wot i'm trying not the 230 you asked for but i think that is possable.
I cant gurantee it will come in under the 5k(just checking for the missus
I'll keep you posted on the progress
P.s i no i didn't enclude a wiring harness on the list but one came with my engine
Lets put some new prices on rthe old pinto...
I had a cutomer who wanted a tractable road engine in his RS2000
He shot of down to Charlie at CTM and 3.5k lighter he came back with....
A freshly painted old pinto, with a ported and polishe, slightly larger valved head with a "caravan " cam in it, that sat ontop of 2.1 bottom end, using 2.8i pistons, a shiney inlet manifold with brand new Weber 45's.
Power, pretty damm square 141bhp/141ft/lb
And he payed the bill....
Breaking MK1 & MK2 Escorts, all models
Vehicles Bought & Sold
All Parts Available
Ebay Shop http://stores.ebay.co.uk/escort-tec
website www.escort-tec.co.uk
Back with the Turbo boys...for now
And he payed the bill....
mk1 matt has just done all i've asked from day one , brilliant , cheers matt
Last edited by mk1 gaz; 17-05-2006 at 23:52.
Erm I think I gave some prices for my zetec conversion. £3k left to tune a 160-170bhp zetec to 230bhp is enough. A full race head complete with cams weighs in about the £1000 mark, you probably want forged pistons to go with that so add £400 and possibly some H-section rods so another £550. Going to work out more than a duratec to get 230bhp by still more than doable for under 5k. Remember you could do the same as matt but to a 2.3 duratec and it would have 230bhp and more torque than the 2 litre. All that from a near standard engine...
She's built like a Steakhouse, but handles like a Bistro
All the pinto haters can come and see the pinto's up at santa pod on classic ford day running some quick times . They can also see mine at the rolling road day on saturday as well if they like , i'll even take them up the road in it and show them some power !!!!!!
Last edited by mk1 gaz; 18-05-2006 at 00:07.
thank you mr chambers , info gratefully recieved .
Thinking about it the 2.3 duratec is probably your best bet as it will probably give you the most reliable and driveable 230bhp. As you use your car on the road a lot its got to be important to you. A 2 litre zetec/duratec/cossie will be revving much higher to get the power and thats going to hurt rebuild times and reliablity. Don't quote me on this but if a standard 2 litre duratec can put out 200bhp ish then a 2.3 standard should be very close to your target outputs. I think the only thing that needs changing on the 2.3 is the cams as its got crappy low power ones as its used in pickups and stuff I think. On the cheap you can use 2 litre cams but might as well whack something a bit more lively in there
She's built like a Steakhouse, but handles like a Bistro
Great pic of Darrens car there, don't know who you are refering to as pinto haters though but I aint one of them. I love all the different power plants that you see in escorts, this is what makes it such an interesting car to modify.All the pinto haters can come and see the pinto's up at santa pod on classic ford day running some quick times . They can also see mine at the rolling road day on saturday as well if they like , i'll even take them up the road in it and show them some power !!!!!!
I just thought that a reiable 230bhp would be cheaper from a newer engine and you have said that you dont care which one it is.
Realistically most of the 16v engines will cost you £2k or £3k to get really nicely installed, although there are short cuts but you might as well do the job right eh?
With the remaining £2k - £3k to spend on tuning parts you would see good power levels, all dependant on which base engine you chose.
I would say go for a YB N/A though as at the end of the day its your car and you should use what you will get the most pleasure out of.
If you fit a duratec or zetec they are still mondeo engines and street cred may suffer as a result.
Whats the most torque you are expecting from the pinto or YB?
Sierra cosworth turbo race car
QMN saloon car championship
RETRO Motorsport
hello dave , i wasn't saying that you were a pinto hater mate , the pinto haters know who they are though !!!!!
Last edited by mk1 gaz; 18-05-2006 at 17:28.
Isn't the 2.3 standard duratec low compression
Big CC Pinto for sale HERE
ineresting, but the torque fig is pretty crap considering the size of the motor, my 2.0 8v beemers could beat that
yes, it is poor for the size of the motor, my 2.2 pinto puts out more than that & without the injection.
That engine, or one of exactly the same spec was actually in LHD escort up at RACE a few weeks back that they had for sale, looks like someone has brought the car and decided to change the engine......
.......for a duratec no doubt
what engine are you talking about , the one that doesn't exist yet or one of those 150 ibls/ft 190bhp duratec's !!!!! popcorn:yes, it is poor for the size of the motor, my 2.2 pinto puts out more than that & without the injection.
That engine, or one of exactly the same spec was actually in LHD escort up at RACE a few weeks back that they had for sale, looks like someone has brought the car and decided to change the engine......
.......for a duratec no doubt
Last edited by mk1 gaz; 18-05-2006 at 20:18.
ahhh the one on andy pipe's link
right now you can take the nasty mean comment about the duratec back
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